T Nation

Gender Roles and Social Outcomes

As specified. Let’s talk about the sexual revolution, let’s talk about the impact various cultures, religions and traditions have had in terms of how various paradigms have treated men and women, and the subsequent outcome associated with such treatment.

Let’s talk about feminism, feminazism, misogyny, misandry, promiscuity, chastity and the ramifications they have had on societal norms, how we view relationships.

Let’s talk about expectations as perceived on the basis of gender.

As this is going to be a constroversial thread covering a lot of sensitive subject matter, I have a few rules that I can’t enforce but would prefer be upheld. No ad hominem attacks, no insults aside from the odd sarcastic quip in good fun, no straw man arguments.

Off topic statements should be limited to the occasional picture of a breakfast pastry or something. If anyone if feeling particularly on edge due to a given statement, give the opposing party due notice I.e “I don’t like where this discussion is going, let’s take a pause and either talk about something else and/or briefly change the course of discussion”.

Remember, not everyone will see eye to eye. We are talking politics, individually harboured beliefs and we will likely cover tough topics like religion, gender, sexual relationships, (maybe) abortion (does relate to feminism) etc. A fair portion of this subject matter pertains to views many are or have been emotionally afflicted by, so let’s all treat one another with respect and engage in civil discourse.

@BrickHead @unreal24278 @dt79 @unreal24278 @SkyzykS @unreal24278

Sorry man. Not doing pwi anymore.

:slightly_frowning_face:

Why not?

Sex is fantastic. But what of the unforseen consequences associated with rampant promiscuity? What constitutes an acceptable balance between hedonism and virtue?

Should the state of sexual relations as is be condoned or encouraged systematically? What of the consequence we have seen in terms of the rise of single parent households, divorce rates, infidelity and more?

I’m not against premarital sex per se, I just wish people would be more nuanced with the construct as opposed to “it’s all acceptable” or “none of it is”. Two partners in a long term relationship who can’t necessarily afford to tie the knot? Why can’t they have sexytimez?

Joe meets Jill at a party, Jill has a boyfriend or Joe has a girlfriend. The two have inebriated, unprotected intercourse and the one with a partner catches an STD, passes it onto their partner… A long term relationship implodes… That’s horrible

Anyone who believes sex is without consequence from my perspective (and I could be wrong) very naive. Sex CAN be without consequence depending on the context, however as of current we take sex for granted.

Why is this? What has led us to an era wherein cheating on a partner is fairly common?

Too many times I found myself regretting my behavior and the investment in being right, tilting at windmills and swinging Way out of my weight class at political constructs and people who can’t even be paid enough to give a fuck about people like me is all squeeze and no juice.

I just don’t like it or what it does to me anymore.

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Yes, many become emotionally engrained within a particular body of thought as our life experiences shape the way we view things.

Many erroneously infer opposing bodies of thought to equate to an attack on one’s harboured moral fundamentals.

This is occasionally the case… But not always. Certain topics one has an intimate, personal vendetta for/against ought to be off limits for that individual less they have the ability to reign themselves in and separate emotionally biased responses from the discourse. I’d argue this can be very difficult to do.

I am not smart enough to participate in this thread. I made a quick off hand comment and regretted it but unfortunately it had been too long to actually delete all the way.

The major problems I see is that society has created masculine thinking women. While man and boys have been pushed aside and let to deal with it.

Starting from schools and their education. Current school education is boring for boys. They are made to sit around and study from female role models. There are no boys only schools. There is no physical activity, no practical styding where boys usually do well and no male teachers. Girls trive in this environment with presentations and seated studing. In fact I believe this environment was created so girls can pqrticipate succeasfully. What you are left with is bored and unmotivated boys who are constantly told to shush, behave and be more disciplined, resulting in worse results.

Then when you get to college and univeraity you see the same schooling set up, even on engeneering degrees. Just learning theory and presentations. Boys drop out like flees.

Add to that the society focusing out of trades. If you are plummer it is a shame, but your average architect, doctor, lawyer earns less than a plumer. Still it is not prestigious enough. For example my car at the moment is repaired by an young upholsterer who earns at least twice more than your doctor. Yet he is considered a low status and uneducated.

This all results in youg women up to their first birth being higher status than their male counter parts. They get average paying jobs and a “career”. And have nothing more to offer than a salary and a body.

I had female colleagues trying to hook me up with a friend of theirs. And they are like she is a doctor. And I was like, oh no I am not interested. And they are like why??? And I am like I do not need an average salary wife, who thinks she has a career and wont be at home for me and our children. We will probably get divorsed, because I would expect her at least to cook, while she will tell me she is not my slave.

And that is the story of a lot of my male friends. They are single fathers or divorsed, because their partners were not able to offer anything a traditional wife would. And my friends are not some guys who can not take care of themselves or are lazy twats. Nope they are your average hard working man, who are not able to find women, because there are no women left. There are careers or salaries who are not slaves at home, but slaves to their jobs.

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Since when does a plumber typically earn more than a doctor or lawyer?

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Actually in Aus a plummer working full time might make more than a doctor during res and/or the first year or two of work.

Trades are generally rewarded generous salaries here. Can easily make six figures working as a plummer (over here).

I know a man (retired now) who made a very good living independently working as a plumber. Developed very strong hands too

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Wait what’s wrong with dating a woman with a career since she needs to fend for herself at the moment. Can’t the whole kids thing just be talked about. Maybe if u get married then your spouse can agree to step away from her career to help raise the kids. Then when the kids become older she can go back to working. That’s actually what my parents did. I mean if you already got the “boss lady” vibe from her while dating then you shouldn’t have married.

I don’t have an issue with a woman pursuing a career in a relationship so long as one parent is home for the most part to raise any children present.

Complaining about women having careers and high paying jobs TO ME merely seems akin to bitching over someone having accomplished more than you; but as it’s a woman who is physically weaker than you the concept may be emasculating, therefore you don’t like it.

Thats fine, you don’t have to go after a partner who earns a six figure salary. However imposing your will if you were to call the shots, to systematically oppress women by telling them “you CAN’T work, your duty is to rear children, make up a home for a man” that’s problematic. That is the construct first wave feminists (women’s suffrage etc) rallied against.

I’d even go as far as to say most men probably wouldn’t want to date a woman they perceive to be more intelligent than they are as it is intimidating. I personally don’t think I’d mind so long as my partner isn’t condescending or arrogant about it. As a matter of fact I have far more of an issue with the opposite, I don’t like the idea of dating someone who is far less intelligent relative to that of myself. Preferably I’d find a partner on an equal slate. I want to be able to engage in deep, philosophical conversations with my partner. I don’t want to have to dumb down virtually every discussion I have. Asking me to speak English, telling me to “stop using big words” doesn’t bode well with me. It’s a turn off. It’s not intelligence I’m after per se, it’s the ability to hold nuanced, dynamic conversations over a breadth of diverse topics.

I’ve heard @Beyond_Beyond say “they got it wrong when they gave women the right to vote”… Why? Why shouldn’t women be entitled to vote? Are they subhuman?

Biologically different, characteristically different, but not inferior or superior on all grounds. The current status quo unfortunately appears to be pushing for unrealistic quotas, gender superiority (again). We are making the same mistakes we have made for hundreds of years, only now on the opposing end of the spectrum. Particularly my generation, I’ve seen quite a bit of misandry… But very rarely do I see misogyny, not to say I haven’t seen it before; though it’s usually from older men and/or basement dwelling incels.

Also, I’d like to point out misogyny or misandry isn’t equitable to harbouring an unpopular body of thought pertaining to gender constructs as many infer it to be today. Misogyny is the legitimate advocacy for discrimination or disdain towards women on the basis of gender, ditto for misandry but men are the target. Criticising women for toxic, abusive or manipulative behaviour is okay just as criticising men for doing the same is also acceptable. However in today’s day and age is appears as if men cop substantially more flack and woman are frequently granted a free pass.

Both men and women were confined to a strict set of expectations back in the day whether they liked it or not.

I’m okay with allocating a little bit of wiggle room outside of tradition largely imposed on the basis of religious norms and eventual child rearing. But I’m not okay with switching to a dynamic that substantially impacts future generations negatively.

As specified, if one parent can stay home and raise their child/children, I’m happy. Kids are not adolescents or adults and thus require guidance and supervision. You can’t provide guidance and supervision (babysitter?) when you aren’t at home.

That is everywhere where you have social medical care. Where I come from even a waitress earns more than a doctor. Regarding the lawyer it pretty much depends on the skills of the lawyers and for whom they work for, but lets just say that the average lawyer doesn’t earn more than a private plumber.

I just dont have the time for dating career women and eventually finding out. Nor I can risk to get married and eventually find out if she is going to step down her career for her kids.

I have problems with what you said. Most men and women are never getting high paying jobs. Most women will always be underpaid in comparison to men. For example my manager earns less than me. And her last rise was because of me, because I was able to negotiate such an increase that they needed to make her salary higher in order to have some balance in hierarchy.

I am not complaining about successful women. I am complaining that women as mislead they are successful for getting an averagely paid jobs and becoming slaves to their jobs. I will never date a women that earns 6 figures, she will not be interested in me. Women always up marry and are looking for more successful men, lets get real. We are speaking about the average guy and the average woman here. Who earn average salaries, but women refusing to take their gender responsibilities, while expecting men to take male responsibilities, while female ones get paid out - housekeeping, child care, babysitting, take aways or food orders or visiting restaurants, vacuum robots and etc.

I find female intelligence over rated. And I will explain it with a joke - I am not going to play chess with my partner and perhaps the most important question we will ask each other on a daily basis will be is what we will have for dinner. Deep conversations are for my male friends. Sure it is nice to have a good conversation with your partner, but I do not expect to speak philosophy or politics with her.

I am not about going back with gender roles. I am about to make so boys and men do better in schools and not have their education oppressed due to girls education. Because in the current education system is designed for girls. We need educated man and typical male professions getting back their fame. We need more proud plumbers, electricians, mechanics and etc.

We also need to stop lying to women that they can have it all. We need to teach them how to rise kids and that this is their responsibility. That being a successful woman is not having a “career”. That nobody measures them based on their paycheck and profession. Especially men are not interested in your career or paycheck, but your nurturing skills and if you are going to be a great mom.

That is not going back, that is progressivism, because we have gender roles so messed up that families and relationships are collapsing.

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I think we are polar opposite on this. I make great money and hope my future partner makes even more! Daddy needs a 40ft center console and wake boat!

If you don’t mind me asking… are you in America?

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No, I am not. But hey man whatever makes you happy. If a career woman that has no time for you and your children is what you are looking for, more power to you.

Actually I have a female coworker that sits in front of me in the office. We talk a lot and I have a huge respect for her. Anyway she is one of the few people earning more than me. Her man owns a small grocery store. Both earn above average. She cant cook, doesnt clean and does not do any house work. It seems to work for them. They pay for house keeping and meals. However they have no children and she is 36, while he is 40. I am not sure how happy they are, but it is a 15 years long relationship.

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Curiously, what is your career?

I dont have a career. I have a high paying job that suits me, because it is Monday to Friday for 50 hours with commuting. I am trying to use the free time to learn to coach soccer. I am coaching an amateur team. I would like to be a professional coach in 10 years. That is a career I would like to have. What I do at the moment I work for a company that deals with convetions, trade fair and congresses in Europe.

Meanwhile I am buying agricultural land with all the saved money which I am loaning at the moment. With an idea to start farming stuff in the future and make money with it. But I need more land and some vehicles to start doing it.

Do you see any economic harm in drastically reducing the female workforce, as you propose?

When did I propose that, lol?

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When you proposed gearing the educational system towards males, and when you proposed encouraging women away from careers and towards domestic responsibilities instead.

Maybe I misinterpreted.