T Nation

Gender Norms, Postmodernism and How We Identify and MeToo


#421

The intent is there if you know the consequences. Whether or not those consequences matter to you is another matter.

Look at it this way, is it true the person feels something that makes him believe he is a woman? It’s the interpretation of the feelings that are in question. But how do we define what a woman actually feels that makes her a woman?

Feelings are real though. Defining them, for the moment at least, is subjective.

I laid out the situation. He is racially black from an African nation, say Nigeria. He was raised Swedish from a cultural perspective. Is he Swedish or is he Nigerian? If an ethnic Swede tells him he isn’t Swedish, he is black according to his DNA, is that the right thing to do?


#422

Why does it hurt you?


#423

Because I have my own feelings. Do you KNOW my feelings?


#424

Not an answer.


#425

I know, I have been trying to get one from you.

Do you know MY feelings?


#426

If you tell me. But does it matter? My feelings matter more. I think that’s a great way to becoming a more civil nation.


#427

I did.

Do you KNOW my feelings?


#428

And therein lies the problem with all this - the determination is not made and has never been made nor should it ever be strictly on feelings. What makes a woman a woman is far more a function of biology than of feelings.

I might feel like I’m the quarterback of the Philadelphia Eagles - my feeling doesn’t change the fact that I ain’t.

Real? Sure. Dispositive? No. We didn’t grind our way through the Enlightenment to replace reason, logic, and truth in the 21st century with the voodoo of feelings as the arbiter of truth.

He’s Swedish - Swedishism isn’t a category determined by ethnicity. Now, if he lived in Nigeria and never set foot in Sweden but claimed be was Swedish - no, he wouldn’t be Swedish because he satisfies none of the commonly understood criteria for being Swedish.


#429

By the way, don’t we draw a difference between at least some intentional and unintentional crimes?


#430

But is a transsexual asking you to acknowledge his biology, or his feelings when it comes to gender identity?

But if I play along, it doesn’t make it real either.

We did that already in the 19th century when romanticism replaced the enlightenment.

But if someone insists he isn’t Swedish, beyond citizenship, that he can’t really know what it is like to be Swedish, because he is black, is that right?


#431

That line of reasoning won’t help you any.


#432

Heh.


#433

Best not to mistake the limits of your imagination for the limits of the universe.

Assuming you’re referring to scientists who study phenomena related to human gender (ie, the scientific community in question), you couldn’t be more wrong. Crack open any relevant textbook written in the last 20 years if you don’t believe me.


#434

You might want to rethink that “Heh.” Here’s a hint. You referring to someone by a particular pronoun doesn’t make that person become something you think they are not, so what is the cost to you for having manners?


#435

I like seeing you admit it isn’t real, but then insist I must play along or I’m a meanie.

Do, you KNOW my feelings?


#436

No, i said it doesn’t make it real if you think it isn’t. And you wonder why I question your intellect.


#437

Nope.


#438

His feelings - and?

Correct. So why would you waste your time playing along?

No, we didn’t.

Nope, because he otherwise satisfies commonly understood criteria of being Swedish. There’s no rational reason his race would be a component of the category of Swedishness. Being Swedish has more to do with cultural exposure and experience as opposed to biological traits.


#439

Exactly. I don’t determine what is real by simply agreeing.


#440

Playing along means that you are pretending a reality you don’t believe.