T Nation

Gender Norms, Postmodernism and How We Identify and MeToo


#1

Things have been too quite here, so I think it’s time to stir some shit up. A little video to go along with it, it’s only 12 minutes so most should be able to tolerate it.

I found this segment quite interesting. That there are still people who think that the way we are physically born has no bearing on our identity and our lives and that everything is a created social construct. Not are they created social constructs, but they are also all bad by default because the intention of categories are inherently repression.
It’s the old nature vs. nurture argument, where are you on the spectrum.
Personally I hope to identify in the middle somewhere. I don’t think our identity is purely physically driven, nor do I think they are all pure social constructs created by evil white men to step on the necks of the other.

Oh, and let’s mix in some #Metoo shit.
I just saw this young guy come back to work with his female co-worker. Both were smiling and seeming to enjoy each other’s company well enough. I don’t have any reason to doubt that it’s purely platonic… BUT, all I could think when seeing them was, “You’re an idiot. Especially if you rode in the same car without a third party.”
All that’s needed is an allegation and he’s out on his ass and unable to get another job because of the allegation, being true is not required. I avoid woman at work like the plague now. I don’t feel comfortable talking to them, I don’t want to be in any confined spaces alone with any. I’ll even let an elevator go if there is a female alone, especially if she’s attractive. And if I cannot get out of the way, I damn sure keep my distance and my mouth shut. I am not impolite, I am just not quick to speak.

This is where we are. That’s how I feel.

Go…


#2

We’ve talked about this a few times in the past.

Generally, imo:
Sex = nature = biological = chromosomal. Aside from a handful of disorders I think this is pretty much (hopefully) undisputed.

Gender, gender identity, and gender roles on the other hand, are more of a grey area (imo) and is a mixture of the two. I see gender as a social construct based largely on biological differences between the sexes. In my mind, it’s a considerably more fluid than sex.


#3

Well they don’t occur in a vacuum…
I don’t think categorization is a bad thing. It’s how we organize our thoughts. If somebody has a better idea on how to do that without the cost of the inability to recall random thoughts, then I am all ears.

The only solution I have heard was to redefine the categories, which I fail to see the point in, since it’s just another category.


#4

I don’t understand what what you’re saying here.

Again, not really following.

To what? The increasing number of gender pronouns? Legislation compeling speech (like in Canada)?


#5

I’m calling males; men, he, him…You get the idea.

Geeze.


#6

And what if your wrong?


#7

Someone’s feelings will be hurt…?


#8

Isn’t that the ultimate crime in humanity?


#9

Perhaps for those that are irrational.


#10

Welcome to the present…
You are the enemy!

It’s time to be pissed about everything…


#11

Then I’ll be gladly and persistently ‘wrong.’

What are they going to do, pass hate crime laws that encompass the offending nouns and pronouns?


#12

I don’t feel like the enemy. No one, in real life, has ever expressed the need to be called x,yz,q,p,56 to me.


#13

Me either. I would call them whatever, if someone asked politely and didn’t give off the vibe that they were trolling, or attention seeking. I reserve the right to judge whether or not someone is sincere, and if not, to tell them to go fuck him/her/zirself.

Canada apparently has a lot of wacky speech codes, at least according to what I hear on podcasts. Glad I don’t live there.


#14

There’s this type of confusion that happens when a person sees a bunch of news stories and youtoobs on a given subject that makes it seem as though something is happening at a much greater frequency or abundance than it is actually occurring with.

I noticed this recently with my one buddy. I’ve been teaching him how to find and identify edible mushrooms. Then he goes on YouTube and Facebook and sees hundreds of posts and bids about chanterelles or something and thinks they’re everywhere and we’re somehow missing out on a mega-bloom.

When the reality is that he’s seeing the aggregation of of events that have occurred over a span of several years and three continents.

For personal use I’ll call it the aggregation fallacy, but there might actually be a real word for it that I just don’t know.


#15

As for the unaccompanied ‘he’ and ‘her…’

  1. You’ve assumed their genders.
  2. Subsequently, you considered the potential risks of a ‘man’ and ‘woman’ going off alone together.

Aha, but there is no ‘man’ and no ‘woman!’

Edit: My bad for assuming the two individuals above are a “their.”


#16

lol! Awesome…


#17

In my opinion, there’s some very understandable arguments and observations, however there’s equally some things that can really be argued.

I think the majority of folks who are on the side of defending the fluidity of gender/sex aren’t completely wrong, and also aren’t completely right. On the chromosomal/Biological level, you cannot, in any conceivable way, try to mix a fluid standpoint on something as hard fixed as how the human chromosomes naturally align themselves. That goes for cutting off body parts, Testosterone/Estrogen replacement, or any other surgery. I mean, you can undergo those processes, but your chromosomes will forever be lined up accordingly during whatever stage of Meiosis/Mitosis or what you, for either male sex parts, or female sex parts (e.g penis/accompanying testes, or vagina/accompanying breasts). I would like to say that the ability to reproduce naturally does impact my opinion on that as well.

As mentioned earlier: despite rare mutations, and genetic exceptions, but I’m talking about the masses/majority.

From the social concepts, I understand where people are coming from. Concepts typically associated with men, and with women are rather fluid dependent on quite a few factors, by they can also have an “Essence” Tied respectfully to either men or women, but Once again, I think it’s unique to each group of people, or to societal cultures. Even in cultures around the world, or more older/ancient cultures. Things like aggression, submission, strength, intelligence, clothing choices, hair length, job selection, gender roles, etc. That much I can agree on, even though I like to stay in neutral because there’s no way I can really ever be definitive. Especially in the postmodern era and technology era where masses of people are able to pursue a large variety of different things.

How do I identify? Well naturally speaking I’m a woman. If asked how I identify I say I’m a woman but I also say, “Im just me”. And leave it at that. I do have Fully functioning lady parts, but concerning society I could care less. I’m attracted to males by a landslide, but I have had, and probably still do have an inclination for women. I find them to be very beautifully crafted. Myself included. Personal convictions, and my own reasoning have lead to mostly me being sexually oriented and gravitating towards men though. I don’t hold the notion that a woman has to be the standard long haired, soft-skinned, pink wearing, dainty, house-cleaning, unequally dubbed to supervise the children 24/7, lower income earning, shallow, dense-headed, image of what most of society think women should be.

Just drawing from my own personal life, most notably my marriage, I think most folks would scoff and shake their head at the “gender roles” and dynamics of my marriage. My husband is very kind natured, soft spoken, kid oriented, and very kept to himself. He’s very smart, likes to tinker with things, and doesn’t really care for things other men would dub “manly”. He will do them if it’s needed for work, but it isn’t something he’d do in his spare time. He’s very into the Fine arts, and music, and even “womanly things”, like haircare, skincare, sewing, etc. That doesn’t make him any less of a man in my eyes. I’m rather rough around the edges, quiet, don’t know what to do around small children, work oriented, and the thought of being a house wife makes me want to dive face first onto the concrete. I’m fascinated with things that are dubbed “manly”, and I’m quick to do shit outside and sweat and try to cut a tree down if I end up with enough time on my hands. But I’m absolutely thankful and completely absorbed in observing and loving the dynamics of our marriage and how it grows as we get older. We both accept each other as we are, and however we feel on any given day. I wear Men’s T-Shirts, jeans, and whatever shoes I decide to wear because it’s comfortable. In highschool I tried to squeeze myself into that dainty, girly-esque, idea of what femininity is thought to be. Didn’t really work out for me.

Femininity to me: is being a mentally, physically, and emotionally strong woman, while simultaneously not being afraid to cater to what allows a woman to feel comfortable, feel invincible, and feel as though she has a place and purpose on this planet. Same for what Masculinity means to me.


#18

GAAAAAAYYYYYY

Kidding, good post.


#19

Concerning Race, that’s one topic in particular that I’d personally just like to see buried in the ground. Race, from just Human standpoint and being organic creations, we are just merely humans.

It irritates me when I think about the word “race”, because it’s seems like it’s literally meant to just categorize, but categorize what? Human abilities? Human characteristics? If Science hasn’t already time and time again, proved that humans function are crafted similarly across the board in normal environments (pertaining to like adequate oxygen, food, water, rest, etc), suited for regular human development, regardless of skin color, then I don’t know what else will prove that. Abilities, Characteristics, Behaviors, Intelligence, Capabilities, Emotions, and Ambitions, (pertaining to the postmodern age) are uniquely suited to each individual person and what they take from their culture, society, or ethnical unbringing.

I think folks are incorrectly correlating the surrounding environment (pertaining to societal unbringing, cultures, beliefs, education, etc), with the melanin content in ones skin, and I find it such a tragedy.


#20

You should definitely not read the Biology of race thread then…