T Nation

Gear is for Cheaters

[quote]malonetd wrote:
jonatan-shg wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
BlackLabel wrote:
Im gonna get alotta shit for this but…

What’s the point of using gear? Why not just lift Raw and get more satisfaction from doing it yourself instead of the shirt or suit giving you those extra lbs. Ive just never seen the point.

Why do golfer’s use Big Bertha?
Why do Tennis players use new lighter/better rackets?
Why do hockey players use graphite sticks?
Why do [insert sport here] use [insert new equipment]?

And the similarity is what?
To play tennis you NEED a racket, to squat you need yourself, a barbell and plates, you don’t need a suit.
So no, it’s not the same thing.

Fine, what about sprinters and shoes? You don’t need shoes to sprint, yet there are special shoes just for sprinting.

Yes, so you get a better grip and don’t hurt your feet.

Why use pads or helmets for football? They’re not necessary to play the game?

So you don’t get hurt.

Why do baseball players wear gloves? You don’t need a glove to catch a ball. What’s the point?

So you don’t get hurt.

Is it necessary for Olympic lifters to wear Olympic shoes? I don’t think so. I’ve weightlifted in my New Balance’s before.

Not the same thing at all either. You’re more stable in a good pair of shoes, but it doesn’t change the force curve nearly as much as gear.

I’ve armwrestled on my kitchen table for years; why do armwreslters need a special table?

I lift in my garage. Why use platforms at meets? Because that’s a part of the rules, to make sure everyone has the same opportunity to perform.

Why use a chessboard for chess? Alexander Alekhine can play just fine without one.

Because it’s a basic part of the game, like you need a barbell to do weighted squats.

Do skateboarders need pads and helmets? The kids down my block never use them?

No, they don’t. Why ask? You just make yourself look stupid. I can’t do a backflip without, can’t do it with either. First time I benched in a shirt, I could probably do 125kg without, and I did 140kg with, couldn’t have done that without.

I lifted weights for years before ever touching chalk. I guess that’s not necessary either.

No, not neceassary, but I use it too. What’s the difference? Thet difference is, that it help your grip, but it doesn’t help you lift.

If we looked hard enough, we could find several things not needed for any particular sport.
Of course, yes, but still a whole other thing IMO.
[/quote]

I don’t see why so many people are getting all “up in arms” about gear vs. no gear.

If someone uses gear, then they are in a different class then raw…therefore you don’t compete against them. So there shouldn’t be an issue.

It’s like being upset because someone in a different weight class out lifted you. WHO F*CKING CARES!?!

(well, apparently someone cares if this thread was created)

OP, i agree with what dfreezy said about not getting pissed that keyboard jockies are jumping in on threads to get a rise out of you and others. There will always be people who like to insert their opinion and those who don’t care. Much like people that get pissed about me making threads about how my pants didn’t fit :wink:

Gear and Raw are the same thing as Softball and baseball are the same thing.

They’re not.

Different rules, different disadvantages, different techniques, different expectations, different approaches, different look, different…well you get the idea.

What’s wrong with raw/gear? nothing. Just know which sport YOU like and do it.

Sheesh, it’s like comparing chess strategies between Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan.

Gear is for Cheaters!

That being said, anyone has a spare Katana that’s either a 44 or 46 that they wanna get rid of?

[quote]malonetd wrote:

Fine, what about sprinters and shoes? You don’t need shoes to sprint, yet there are special shoes just for sprinting.

Why use pads or helmets for football? They’re not necessary to play the game?

Why do baseball players wear gloves? You don’t need a glove to catch a ball. What’s the point?

Is it necessary for Olympic lifters to wear Olympic shoes? I don’t think so. I’ve weightlifted in my New Balance’s before.

I’ve armwrestled on my kitchen table for years; why do armwreslters need a special table?

Why use a chessboard for chess? Alexander Alekhine can play just fine without one.

Do skateboarders need pads and helmets? The kids down my block never use them?

I lifted weights for years before ever touching chalk. I guess that’s not necessary either.

If we looked hard enough, we could find several things not needed for any particular sport.[/quote]

come on man. i honestly don’t care if people use gear or not. but some of those arguments are rediculous.

the only thing that does bother me is when some guy tries to discuss lifting with me, then gets excited b/c apparently ‘dude i weigh like 50lbs less than you and do 75+lbs on all your lifts’ so when i run into the guy at the gym and all his friends aren’t around he finally admits that all those lifts were with gear.

bullshit.

Gear doesn’t “bother” me per se, but I think it contributes to what the general public doesn’t appreciate about powerlifting, and therefore at least indirectly hurts the sport. I’ll bet it’s part of why strongman has grown so much in the last 20 years while powerlifting has declined. I think both strongman and powerlifting are getting at what inspires us in a simple, incredible act of brute force.

While strongman has certainly become more stylized, especially recently, there is still something about a guy with no shirt rushing to load huge, intimidating rocks that will stop someone from flipping channels. By contrast, powerlifting can come off as a strange cult. People see the suits that the guys can barely move around in, the enormous advantage to having a huge gut, the extremely limited range of motion, and it’s tough to relate.

I think this is why tensions run so high on this issue.

I personally don’t like gear, but I don’t care what other people do. If you want to start a “powerlifting” competition using hydraulic jacks, be my guest, but I won’t lift in your fed. It doesn?t affect me.

I only have a problem when people claim a multiply squat as there squat number without the little asterisk noting the gear.

As previously mentioned geared lifts are different lifts. Like people that claim full clean numbers as their ?power? clean.

As for the people that talk about injury prevention, I call BS. It is not the same thing as a skateboarder wearing a helmet. That?s a pretty stupid argument.

I think the biggest legit argument for gear is also the biggest argument against it. It makes the events different than the lifts the general public does in the gym. It separates the sport of powerlifting from gym exercises. That?s the good and bad off it. However, when the general public hears some guy squatted 1200 lbs then sees the video with the ROM of 5 inches and reads comments on the equipment, the general reaction is that it?s cheating. And I think it delegitimizes the whole sport to an extent in the eyes of the public. And, like it or not, if you want powerlifting to move more mainstream and possibly get into the Olympics, you need better public opinion.

Another point is that as adamant as so RAW!!! Jedi?s are, a lot geared guys are equally defensive. It?s both an opinion that gear is or isn?t crap and neither is more legitimate. And I?ve seen just about as many gear nazi?s 100% determined to defend their faith from every conceivable attack as raw nazi?s.

My last thought is on geared feds and high squats. I really don?t care what gets passed but it seems like the rules should match what?s passed. If you want to change the defined depth of a squat then why not update the rules? Once again, just means I won?t lift in that fed, my panties aren?t in a wad over it.

Lifting 75% (or more) of my geared max in gear is way more comfortable, and easier on my hips, than lifting 75% (or more) of my raw max without gear.

Just sayin’.

[quote]Invictica wrote:
BlackLabel wrote:
Im gonna get alotta shit for this but…

What’s the point of using gear? Why not just lift Raw and get more satisfaction from doing it yourself instead of the shirt or suit giving you those extra lbs. Ive just never seen the point.

better not Olympic lift in Oly Shoes
better not Sprint with clits
better not do the tour de france with clip ons

Same deal man. Gear is just another tool to help you push your goals further. Gear is just more obvious than all the other aids in other sports. But it doesn’t take away from the spirit of the sport. You can’t put a shitty lifter in gear and turn him into a world class lifter.

I gurantee you, the majority of the “raw” lifters who shit the bed at any accomplishment of a geared lifter, are absolutely terrible themselves. They need a scape goat to justify their own short comings. [/quote]

I agree. I very much enjoy clits when I run. Well all the time really lol

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:
Im gonna get alotta shit for this but…

What’s the point of using gear? Why not just lift Raw and get more satisfaction from doing it yourself instead of the shirt or suit giving you those extra lbs. Ive just never seen the point.[/quote]

For me there is more competition in single ply than in raw. I could give a shit less what I lift, I want to be competitive against the best powerlifters in the country (eventually) in my weight class.

There is a guy in my gym who could be a USAPL national champion in unequipped right now. In single ply he still has a ways to go. I have no idea what I will accomplish in this sport but I want it to be against the best competition.

[quote]Neospartan wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
dfreezy wrote:
Why get offended from what random people (most of whom are keyboard athletes) are saying on internet forum? You have to expect a level of asshattery from discussion boards and if things like this upset you frequently you probably want to find another one to frequent.

It would be nice to be able to discuss big events in my sport, like world record lifts, without people hijacking to bitch about something they don’t understand.

This isn’t a matter of being offended, rather, it would be nice if we could stay on topic.

well that happens in pretty much all discussions here, be it PowerLifting, Olympic Weightlifting, BodyBuilding, Kettlebell stuff, etc…

[/quote]

Exactly. That’s the curse of the interweebz. There is so much information out there, and so many venues to discuss them… BUT, there will always be fuckers who like to shit things up from the anonymous comfort of their keyboards :confused:

[quote]jonatan-shg wrote:
tmcg86 wrote:
jonatan-shg wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
BlackLabel wrote:
Im gonna get alotta shit for this but…

What’s the point of using gear? Why not just lift Raw and get more satisfaction from doing it yourself instead of the shirt or suit giving you those extra lbs. Ive just never seen the point.

Why do golfer’s use Big Bertha?
Why do Tennis players use new lighter/better rackets?
Why do hockey players use graphite sticks?
Why do [insert sport here] use [insert new equipment]?

And the similarity is what?
To play tennis you NEED a racket, to squat you need yourself, a barbell and plates, you don’t need a suit.
So no, it’s not the same thing.

I still don’t think there’s a fed that allows you to squat naked. So yes, you need a suit :slight_smile: How tight and strong it can be, depends on the rules of the fed.

Life would be simpler if there was no gear. Just show up and lift. I’ve worn gear because i wanted to be competitive against other people wearing gear. Nobody who wears gear is competing in raw feds, nobody is pretending that these are raw lifts. It makes sense to wear the same gear as everybody else.

Yes, but as you say, people wear gear because other people wear gear, not because they really want to wear gear.
If there was no gear, it would be alot simpler.
I’m not saying, there should be no gear, so don’t whine, all you gear users, I use gear myself, but I would prefer doing it raw.[/quote]

I think the similarity is pretty obvious. Like it or not, equipped powerlifting is a sport, which is arguably a whole different ballgame from raw lifting. Asking why an equipped powerlifter would want better, tighter gear with new fabrics is like asking why other athletes use the best equipment the can get their hands on. The point is to be the best, most competitive athlete you can be as the rules allow.

Whether you like the gear or not, successful equipped lifters at least deserve some amount of respect. To be successful requires a great deal of skill and technique on top of massive amounts of strength.

One of the reason guys that are moving insane amounts of weight are able to do so is because they’ve mastered their gear. You can’t put a shitty lifter in a Leviathan or SDP shirt and expect him to put 300 pounds on his lift. Gear like that is only going to make your technical flaws and weaknesses more obvious.

You certainly don’t need a suit to squat, but that’s what makes geared powerlifting a SPORT called Equipped Powerlifting. You also don’t need a platform, or 3 judges, or federations, or records or meets to be able to squat, but that is all part of the sport.

jonatan-shg, If you don’t want to compete against geared athletes, you have two options: compete in the raw division, or go workout in a gym and wear whatever you want on squat day. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you into a squat suit and just about every fed has a raw division now.

And…B rock
My whole point when I posted this was to have a place to discuss/whine/bitch/question gear use, rather than cluttering up other legitimate threads that have been created to actually discuss powerlifting.

I’m a high-squatting multi-ply powerlifter and don’t give a flying fuck about which anonymous internet personas approve of what I wear when I lift. As long as my numbers are going up and my name is going in the record books, I’m happy. I’m just tired of people bringing up gear in an attempt to disparage the efforts of successful lifters and ruin other threads.

Ok, here’s my take on it.

PL gear is like steroids.

I don’t care if you use it, I have nothing against it, I just choose not to use it myself.

However, it is human nature to want to compare yourself to others around you. If someone can out squat/bench/dl you then you have to look for reasons why that’s the case (it certainly can’t due to your training or lack of motivation). “Well, yeah he can out lift me when he’s wearing that cheater gear, but how much can he lift without it?” Or “Yeah, of course he can bench more than me, he’s juicing.”

Fact of the matter is, PL gear doesn’t lift the weights for you any more than performance enhancing drugs do. They are just taking it to the next level. Walking a grand out in a suit doesn’t make it any easier. It’s still 1000lbs on your shoulders, and I’m sure it hurts like hell in the hole.

Like some others here, my only request would be for you gear cheaters just to come clean when you say you Squat 700lbs or bench 400lbs or whatever. Be honest with me, and with yourself and include the fact that it was a singly ply, or denim or whatever. If you say “I Squat 500lbs” then I assume that it’s raw, as would most others.

[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
I’m just tired of people bringing up gear in an attempt to disparage the efforts of successful lifters and ruin other threads.[/quote]

But what else would there be to talk about? It’s not like we are going to intelligently discuss training methods, or appreciate huge feats of strength.

We’ve already beaten the full body vs body part split argument into the ground. I’ve tried only somewhat successfully to derail threads with what’s your favorite lifting music, because that’s only been done a million times. There can only be so many favorite tatoo threads.

Really the only tangent left to go on is the geared vs raw. That’s just the way it is. Over and over and over.

[quote]Invictica wrote:
better not Sprint with clits
[/quote]

That’s nasty, but I didn’t know it was considered cheating.

[quote]Modi wrote:

PL gear is like steroids.

Fact of the matter is, PL gear doesn’t lift the weights for you any more than performance enhancing drugs do. They are just taking it to the next level. Walking a grand out in a suit doesn’t make it any easier. It’s still 1000lbs on your shoulders, and I’m sure it hurts like hell in the hole.[/quote]

With roidz you?re body is still doing 100% of the mechanical work. In gear, your body does not do 100% of the mechanical work. A portion of potential mgh gets roughly stored as spring 1/2KX^2 in the hole and converted back to mgh at lockout. Not disrespecting geared guys, but the gear does do a portion of the mechanical work involved.

I also disagree that it is ?taking it to the next level?. I feel they are 2 different sports. I resent people thinking of raw as a lower level of powerlifting as much as gear guys resent people thinking gear is cheating.

You wouldn?t say a clean and jerk is a ?next level? snatch because more pounds are involved.

[quote]Modi wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
I’m just tired of people bringing up gear in an attempt to disparage the efforts of successful lifters and ruin other threads.

But what else would there be to talk about? It’s not like we are going to intelligently discuss training methods, or appreciate huge feats of strength.

We’ve already beaten the full body vs body part split argument into the ground. I’ve tried only somewhat successfully to derail threads with what’s your favorite lifting music, because that’s only been done a million times. There can only be so many favorite tatoo threads.

Really the only tangent left to go on is the geared vs raw. That’s just the way it is. Over and over and over.[/quote]

Hmm…There’s always…

The “liking muscular women does/does not make you gay” debate

The “Chris Sughart/Chad Waterbury/[insert contributor’s name here] is an Idiot” topic

The “Bulk vs Cut” debate

The “Can I stroke it before I max/ Will stroking it lower my test levels and ruin my hopes of becoming a Pro BB?” topic

The “He can’t be natural” debate

Have ALL of those really been beaten into the ground already?

[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Modi wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
I’m just tired of people bringing up gear in an attempt to disparage the efforts of successful lifters and ruin other threads.

But what else would there be to talk about? It’s not like we are going to intelligently discuss training methods, or appreciate huge feats of strength.

We’ve already beaten the full body vs body part split argument into the ground. I’ve tried only somewhat successfully to derail threads with what’s your favorite lifting music, because that’s only been done a million times. There can only be so many favorite tatoo threads.

Really the only tangent left to go on is the geared vs raw. That’s just the way it is. Over and over and over.

Hmm…There’s always…

The “liking muscular women does/does not make you gay” debate

The “Chris Sughart/Chad Waterbury/[insert contributor’s name here] is an Idiot” topic

The “Bulk vs Cut” debate

The “Can I stroke it before I max/ Will stroking it lower my test levels and ruin my hopes of becoming a Pro BB?” topic

The “He can’t be natural” debate

Have ALL of those really been beaten into the ground already?[/quote]

Waffles!

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Waffles![/quote]

Blasphemy!!

Blueberry pancakes. Eaten in Ace Briefs.

[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Waffles!

Blasphemy!!

Blueberry pancakes. Eaten in Ace Briefs.[/quote]

Though I?m not sure why you would, briefs sounds like as good a place as any to put pancakes. I would think the material would be too chewy though.