T Nation

Gains Dependent on Routine?

Hi folks, maybe it’s obvious for some but it’s a question that popped into my head.

If you’re bulking and doing a strength based routine (low reps 1-5 range) isn’t most of the weight you gain fat, due to the low mass gains on such programms?

If people talk about an expected weight gain of 0.5 lb/week, doesn’t that depend on their routine. Let’s say we’re eating so much that we’re gaining 0,5 lb/week. Wouldn’t a hypertrophy routine like german volume training put on more leanbodymass out of the gained 0,5lbs then if we would follow a strength based programm like texas method, where would eat so that we’re gaining the wanted 0,5lb/week?

Hope you see what i’m up to.

I’m eating in a caloric excess so that I gain about 2lb a month. Doing it since july and gained about 10lbs. I’m doing a strength based tecxas method. While my strength and weight grew, my mass and physique didn’t really change. Is the gain weight now mostly fat and would I have gained more lbm if I would have done a hypertrophy based routine?

[quote]Pericu wrote:
Hi folks, maybe it’s obvious for some but it’s a question that popped into my head.

If you’re bulking and doing a strength based routine (low reps 1-5 range) isn’t most of the weight you gain fat, due to the low mass gains on such programms?

If people talk about an expected weight gain of 0.5 lb/week, doesn’t that depend on their routine. Let’s say we’re eating so much that we’re gaining 0,5 lb/week. Wouldn’t a hypertrophy routine like german volume training put on more leanbodymass out of the gained 0,5lbs then if we would follow a strength based programm like texas method, where would eat so that we’re gaining the wanted 0,5lb/week?

Hope you see what i’m up to.

I’m eating in a caloric excess so that I gain about 2lb a month. Doing it since july and gained about 10lbs. I’m doing a strength based tecxas method. While my strength and weight grew, my mass and physique didn’t really change. Is the gain weight now mostly fat and would I have gained more lbm if I would have done a hypertrophy based routine?[/quote]

There is no way for someone that doesn’t see you, have access to photos, or body measurements to know if your weight gain is body fat or LBM. Strength training can produce LBM gains. A hypertrophy routine can produce a higher LBM gain. Now take the 531 program, what makes this such a good program is that while you are increasing raw strength with 531 on the major lifts you still are using different energy sources with the accessory exercises to enhance the LBM gains.

[quote]mbdix wrote:
There is no way for someone that doesn’t see you, have access to photos, or body measurements to know if your weight gain is body fat or LBM. Strength training can produce LBM gains. A hypertrophy routine can produce a higher LBM gain. Now take the 531 program, what makes this such a good program is that while you are increasing raw strength with 531 on the major lifts you still are using different energy sources with the accessory exercises to enhance the LBM gains.
[/quote]

Forget about me in that situation. Let me explain it this way, maybe that’ll be more obvious :slight_smile:

"The same guy is starting at the same point (Height, gender, age, weight, etc)

Option 1;
Bulking on High Rep (something like 3x10-12reps) Hypertrophy Routine.
Eating that much that he’s gaining 2lb/month.

Option 2;
Bulking on low rep (something like 1-5 reps or max RM) Strength Routine.
Eating that he’s gaining 2lb/month.

So, both bulking routines would aim for 2lbs/month.
After 5 Month, both gained 10lbs. Option 1 put on some visible muscle mass but at option 2 you don’t really see any physique change."

We see that at both option he gained the weight he wanted, but did both option provide the same amount of Muscle/Fat ratio?

Hope this might bring a bit of light to it. But I think, that’s a really interesting topic :slight_smile:

^^in your scenario two versions of the same lifter bulked for 5 months and gained 2 pounds.

1 lifter “put on some visible muscle mass” and in the other version of the lifter “you don’t really see any physique changes” and you want to know which lifter gained more muscle?

I think it’s pretty obvious.

[quote]Pericu wrote:
If you’re bulking and doing a strength based routine (low reps 1-5 range) isn’t most of the weight you gain fat, due to the low mass gains on such programms?
[/quote]
No. Not unless you’re doing it wrong.

No it does not. Routine is A factor but not the only factor.

Why are you shooting for weight gain if that weight isn’t is quality mass? If you’re not gaining any muscle and only fat you are not smart if you continue in your ways.

[quote]gregron wrote:
^^in your scenario two versions of the same lifter bulked for 5 months and gained 2 pounds.

1 lifter “put on some visible muscle mass” and in the other version of the lifter “you don’t really see any physique changes” and you want to know which lifter gained more muscle?

I think it’s pretty obvious.[/quote]

I said, 10lbs in 5 months. 2lbs/month :wink:

Is it obvious?! I’m not so sure. Aren’t people saying that the mass gain at strength based routines is minimal?
So, wouldn’t that mean that if you’re gaining 10lbs over a persiod of 5 month without focusing on mass gain, that most of it would be fat?
Or has it something to do with myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy?

[quote]Pericu wrote:
Is it obvious?! I’m not so sure.
[/quote]
You’re not so sure that the person with visible muscle gain has gained more muscle than the person without visible muscle gain?

No. That isn’t the case if the program is a well designed and balanced strength training routine. You don’t focus on getting stronger without gaining muscle mass and you don’t focus on gaining muscle mass without getting stronger. They aren’t mutually exclusive goals my man.

I think you may have some of your concepts misconstrued a bit. Gaining 10 pounds IS gaining mass. I sure hope you or anyone else isn’t putting on 10 pounds of fat after a few months of focusing on strength. 10 pounds of fat is a lot of flub.

[quote]gregron wrote:
You’re not so sure that the person with visible muscle gain has gained more muscle than the person without visible muscle gain?[/quote]

[quote]
No. That isn’t the case if the program is a well designed and balanced strength training routine. You don’t focus on getting stronger without gaining muscle mass and you don’t focus on gaining muscle mass without getting stronger. They aren’t mutually exclusive goals my man.

I think you may have some of your concepts misconstrued a bit. Gaining 10 pounds IS gaining mass. I sure hope you or anyone else isn’t putting on 10 pounds of fat after a few months of focusing on strength. 10 pounds of fat is a lot of flub.[/quote]

There will always be muscle gain to some degree, but that’s the point.
Comparing hypertrophy and Strength routine muscle gains with each other and we would say 100% would be pure muscle mass.
Hypertrophy slow bulk where you gain 6lbs. muscle and 4lbs fat out of the 100%(just throwing with numbers) would you expect the same muscle/fat gain ratio at a strength based routine?
That’s what I’m curious about :slight_smile:

WAY to many variables.

It can depend on the type of diet you have, overall volume, your primary muscle make up types, on and on and on and on.

After flopping around in training for years, I’ve come ot the conclusion that most of these small differences only materialy impact advanced lifters.

Pericu, no strength program has you ONLY doing 1-5 reps. Westside has the repetition effet, Wendler has it’s assistance work, CTs programs have density work. The only exception are 5x5s which have you do so much volume that there is still just as much hypertrophy effect.

What I think this guy is saying is that people say to eat big a d lift heavy aka low reps when you go on a bulk.
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.

[quote]Liam M wrote:
What I think this guy is saying is that people say to eat big a d lift heavy aka low reps when you go on a bulk.
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]

Who says this?

  1. High training volume is not the same as “higher reps”.

  2. A strength program demands constant strength (poundage) progression in a (more or less) fixed rep range (usually moderate to lowish) and uses the appropriate training volume/frequency to get the job done. It isn’t for “quick” gains in size but for consistent gains in size/strength over a lifter’s life.

  3. A lot of misguided people who constantly train exclusively with very low reps AND low overall volume end up increasing weight (sacrificing reps) to the point of ending up doing a top set of 1-2 reps and little else - and call that “progress”. Thats more like “peaking” and NOT progression. Thats also NOT a strength program.

  4. If someone wanted to just gain 5-10 pounds of “wet weight” in a few weeks for a special event (and cares little about how long that will stick around or if it will continue) OR he just wants to make certain muscles “pop better” as quick as possible for a shoot or whatever, he would do a program with higher reps AND frequency for obvious reasons.

[quote]Liam M wrote:
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Liam M wrote:
What I think this guy is saying is that people say to eat big a d lift heavy aka low reps when you go on a bulk.
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]

Who says this?[/quote]

People who are misinformed?

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Liam M wrote:
What I think this guy is saying is that people say to eat big a d lift heavy aka low reps when you go on a bulk.
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]

Who says this?[/quote]

People who are misinformed?[/quote]

To be fair, I think this guy is comin from what I hear almost every BB type guy I actually know in real life, “lift heavy for high reps” which is completely incongruent to how I see it, which is: heavy is relevant to the lifter, and you CANT lift heavy for high reps. For example, you might think a 1000# leg press is heavy, but if you can do it 25 times… Its not. That’s the PLer in me comin out though.

More applicable to the actual topic: I think this is splitting hairs, really. Getting stronger will help you get bigger. Maybe, or maybe not as directly as you want, but it will never hurt your progress. Unless you push it too far into injury but that’s a risk regardless.

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Liam M wrote:
What I think this guy is saying is that people say to eat big a d lift heavy aka low reps when you go on a bulk.
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]

Who says this?[/quote]

People who are misinformed?[/quote]

To be fair, I think this guy is comin from what I hear almost every BB type guy I actually know in real life, “lift heavy for high reps” which is completely incongruent to how I see it, which is: heavy is relevant to the lifter, and you CANT lift heavy for high reps. For example, you might think a 1000# leg press is heavy, but if you can do it 25 times… Its not. That’s the PLer in me comin out though.

More applicable to the actual topic: I think this is splitting hairs, really. Getting stronger will help you get bigger. Maybe, or maybe not as directly as you want, but it will never hurt your progress. Unless you push it too far into injury but that’s a risk regardless. [/quote]

Every article written about gaining mass says to lift heavy and eat. Then at the end it says 'oh but don’t neglect higher rep work’
I myself was told many times to eat more and just get the weight up. Then do cardio so you don’t get fat
I noticed with myself that weight moves weight. I got fat and could overhead press110kg, I feel now that I did that because even doing a slight leg drive breaks the inertia and an object in motion stays in motion. When I sat down and did overhead press I could only do 80kg.
When I lost weight my overhead press dropped to 90kg and all other lifts dropped.

Saying I’m going to deliberately bulk 2lb a week or what ever and then judging your strength increases in the big lifts is faulty
My friend bulked and got to a 300kg deadlift for reps, then he cut and dropped down to 260kg. Now he is stuck at 260kg and eating more than ever.
I believe as he starts getting fatter he will begin to move heavier weight again. Then when he diets a little his lifts will drop again

This is just what I’ve noticed, I unfortunately don’t have all the answers but I can definitely see the problems

[quote]Depression Boy wrote:

  1. High training volume is not the same as “higher reps”.

  2. A strength program demands constant strength (poundage) progression in a (more or less) fixed rep range (usually moderate to lowish) and uses the appropriate training volume/frequency to get the job done. It isn’t for “quick” gains in size but for consistent gains in size/strength over a lifter’s life.

  3. A lot of misguided people who constantly train exclusively with very low reps AND low overall volume end up increasing weight (sacrificing reps) to the point of ending up doing a top set of 1-2 reps and little else - and call that “progress”. Thats more like “peaking” and NOT progression. Thats also NOT a strength program.

  4. If someone wanted to just gain 5-10 pounds of “wet weight” in a few weeks for a special event (and cares little about how long that will stick around or if it will continue) OR he just wants to make certain muscles “pop better” as quick as possible for a shoot or whatever, he would do a program with higher reps AND frequency for obvious reasons.

[quote]Liam M wrote:
But then they turn around and say that you need higher reps to build muscle.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree with this. People chase numbers, those numbers gradually decrease (the reps Start at 10 and then become singles) and they wonder why they aren’t growing

[quote]Liam M wrote:

Every article written about gaining mass says to lift heavy and eat. Then at the end it says 'oh but don’t neglect higher rep work’
I myself was told many times to eat more and just get the weight up. Then do cardio so you don’t get fat
I noticed with myself that weight moves weight. I got fat and could overhead press110kg, I feel now that I did that because even doing a slight leg drive breaks the inertia and an object in motion stays in motion. When I sat down and did overhead press I could only do 80kg.
When I lost weight my overhead press dropped to 90kg and all other lifts dropped.

Saying I’m going to deliberately bulk 2lb a week or what ever and then judging your strength increases in the big lifts is faulty
My friend bulked and got to a 300kg deadlift for reps, then he cut and dropped down to 260kg. Now he is stuck at 260kg and eating more than ever.
I believe as he starts getting fatter he will begin to move heavier weight again. Then when he diets a little his lifts will drop again

This is just what I’ve noticed, I unfortunately don’t have all the answers but I can definitely see the problems
[/quote]

Can I get a name of one of these people that says lift heavy and eat for mass gain? I’m just curious who is saying this.

This is hard to answer considering there have been men who have built mass with reps of 1 to 20!

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Liam M wrote:

Every article written about gaining mass says to lift heavy and eat. Then at the end it says 'oh but don’t neglect higher rep work’
I myself was told many times to eat more and just get the weight up. Then do cardio so you don’t get fat
I noticed with myself that weight moves weight. I got fat and could overhead press110kg, I feel now that I did that because even doing a slight leg drive breaks the inertia and an object in motion stays in motion. When I sat down and did overhead press I could only do 80kg.
When I lost weight my overhead press dropped to 90kg and all other lifts dropped.

Saying I’m going to deliberately bulk 2lb a week or what ever and then judging your strength increases in the big lifts is faulty
My friend bulked and got to a 300kg deadlift for reps, then he cut and dropped down to 260kg. Now he is stuck at 260kg and eating more than ever.
I believe as he starts getting fatter he will begin to move heavier weight again. Then when he diets a little his lifts will drop again

This is just what I’ve noticed, I unfortunately don’t have all the answers but I can definitely see the problems
[/quote]

Can I get a name of one of these people that says lift heavy and eat for mass gain? I’m just curious who is saying this.
[/quote]

Are you trolling me?