60 seconds or less.
I’ve told my quest with 30-30-30 and 30-10-30 previously on this forum. I’ve also brought into action 15-15-15 plus 8-12 reps, 10-10-10, and very slow chins and dips. I still apply all of these methods with my clients.
But the one that I like the best, and the one that I believe produces the greatest muscular stimulation is 30-10-30. And it also provides the best cardiorespiratory effects.
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Dr Darden,
Is your current opinion on 30-10-30 to stop the middle reps when you are unable to keep the 1 up 2 down cadence? When increasing weight, I often manage 2-3 slower “additional” reps, before going into final 30 neg. I would presume this ok as long as you do at least 6 proper reps in form?
Yes, I believe what you are doing is okay.
Dr. Darden,
Would you please provide some guidance about the frequency of training? In all of your books, you recommend less frequent workouts as you become more advanced. Based on this forum, it appears that you allow for more variance. Are there signs that I should be looking for that tells me it is okay to work out again (i.e., no soreness, good energy level, readiness)? Are there signs that I can identify that suggest that I am not in recovery and should avoid working out that day (i.e., soreness, lethargy)? In other words, how can I decide the frequency I should lift each week? I am not a novice. Before you recent article about 30-10-30, I was working out once every 5 days as recommended by your book “The New High Intensity Training”. I am fine with working out more frequently, but I also want to avoid overtraining. Thanks,
Steve
== Scott==
I and many others have been trying to figure that out for many years. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt energetic and well recovered etc and then during the workout I can’t even do what I did the last time and other times I felt like crap , tired and yet had a great workout with good gains .
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With 30-10-30, and not training to failure, I am recommending three-times-per-week workouts. But you have to get the hang of the protocol and the number of exercises must be initially limited to six.
My new eBook will cover all the details.
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I did my first ntf 30-10-30, stopped short of failure by about 2 reps…did not feel exhausted towards the end of the workout…i think I may like this…cant wait for your ebook
Thanks as always.
I’ve been looking back at some articles on 30 10 30 and I’ve seen statements like this “ . Frequently, a trainee can manage the first negative repetition in 30 seconds but can barely get 15 seconds on the finishing negative”
I’ve been practicing what I think is 30 10 30 for several weeks now and today I did some experimenting. So far I haven’t experienced not being able to easily complete either 30 second negative. I’ve been using a weight that I can barely do 12 reps, less on some exercises. Today I added enough weight , about 3 or 4 more plates on the machine so that I barely was able to do one or two reps with out help.I did the first 30 second negative and then I had my son stand there and assist just enough so I could complete the 10 reps at a 1-2 cadence. The next 30 second negative was still no problem , I could have used more weight , at least for the negative . Shouldn’t the negatives be feeling heavier ? It seems like I must be doing something wrong ?
Scott
I think you overthinking this. In know your working on this as not going to failure.
Keep in mind you had help from your son. So it might be hard to gauge how much effort was involved in those 10 reps. For example If you would have went to positve failure on your own you would have a bit of a battle for that last 30 second negative.
I would go back to what you were doing before you had your son help you.
From there keep adding weight and work on having good form. Keep at it over time. Or consider using a heavier weight for less reps. Try something like five or six middle reps.
On another note which machines are you using? Could there be some friction on the negative that last negative that helps make it easier?
Regardless you should be stronger on the negative.
== Scott ==
My point was I picked a weight I could barely do one rep with out help. I’ve done assisted reps many times so I know how that works, my son used two fingers to assist just enough so I was struggling to get it up 10 times yet the negative afterwards was too easy? I know people are always stronger on the eccentric yet I hear of people struggling with that last negative?
Isn’t the idea to pick a weight that is 80% of what you can use for 10 reps and use that for the 10 rep part of 30 10 30? It just seems that weight is just to easy for the negatives? Friction is low on my machines. Am I not communicating this well?
Scott
I understand. Just offering a few ideas on why you said the last 30 is no problem. If your 30/10/30 is working for you keep it up. Don’t worry if your last 30 is not a very hard. Keep at it.
Thinking about it if your in control then your good.
I appreciate your thoughts , it’s just that I’m wondering why with An 80% weight on my 10 reps my negatives are so easy ? Is it possibly because my concentrics have gotten so weak compared to my eccentrics ? Maybe our concentric ability loses strength much quicker than eccentric as we age? I’m roughly using the same weight I always have?
Thanks
Scott
If you look on YouTube, you can find some 30-10-30 demo videos. The ones by the bodybuilder Mark Dugdale are particularly interesting in that he appears to be working pretty hard and using significant weight. On the other hand, it may be the case that the 30-10-30 set came after a lot of traditional sets with pretty heavy weight, so he was already thoroughly fatigued before he started.
There are also a few on the Arjan Meijer HIT channel. In some of those he appears to struggle at the end despite fairly modest weight. But that may mean he just isn’t that strong relative to a pro bodybuilder.
Take a look at those, and see how you compare…
One thing to check regarding your performance: are you changing your form, or bracing differently for the negatives, relative to the regular reps?
God I’ve been checking youtube to death . As far as I know I’m not changing anything from the 10 reps to the 30 . Same angle etc. It’s seems like I could hold the negatives for 40-50 seconds if I wanted to but then the TUT would be too long? It seems like I’d have to almost use my one or two rep max weight to make it so I might fail at the end of the 2nd negative? I don’t know??
Scott
I usually do not find the second negative so easy at times. When I started out with using the 30-10-30 protocol (or 25-10-25 for many exercises), I learned that how close to failure the “10” part gets determines how easy or not that second negative will be and that is particularly true after I increase the starting weight because I succeeded at the protocol’s targets previously. Now the “10” part for me is not the number of reps completed. Rather, it’s the target TUL of 30 seconds (or 25 seconds). In some movements I find 6 reps consumes 25 seconds, in others 9 reps consume the targeted number of seconds, etc. Another aspect of the “middle” part is that I might find that I have completed say 7 reps and noticed how close to the target TUL I am so I attempt an 8th rep since I have, it appears, just enough time to complete it and I rush that 8th rep within the TUL window too close to failure - the second negative can then become a killer and I often will not make the 30 (or 25) TUL. But over time, the second negative is achieved especially if I do not get so close to positive failure in the “middle” part.
I use the middle reps as a calibrator, deciding factor on how much weight to load/add. I agree with bohicabob, that TUL is a better rule to follow during these middle reps, especially since the cadence tend to be slower, during the final reps, while using a heavier weight.
I am not entirely into leaving two reps in the tank, as this may result in underperformance during the middle reps, thus making the final 30 sec too easy. I am experimenting with leaving one rep in the tank.
Focusing on managing 10 middle reps, instead of 12, sure feels better to me. Just my comments on this.
I also use TUL rather than reps for the “10” of 30-10-30. I use the App “Seconds” and use three 30 second timers. Depending on the exercise, I may get 6-8 reps using a slow, controlled cadence. Comments? Dr. Darden?