Gaining LBM for Former Fatties

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

Some quality info in this thread!

JasonL,
I would highly recommend that you incorporate HIIT sessions throughout the week, atleast 2. Regardless if you are active at work or not…HIIT has sooo many benefits, especially if you are “bulking” and want to keep fat gain to a minimum. Personally I have found that 2 HIIT sessions plus the occasional 5-10 minute post training low/moderate cardio bodes well for me. I have put on close to 10 lbs in the past 4-6 weeks or so and I have noticed little to no fat gain.

I think the key is the post workout nutrition though. My largest meal of the day is my first whole food P+C meal 60 minutes after training (I train at 3PM). My 2nd largest meal is breakfast (which is also a P+C meal). Basically, I take advantage of the times in the day where I am most insulin sensitive and where my body will utilize the carbs best. Like you my carb sources come from; Surge, oatmeal, yams, etc etc…I also like flax bread and cereal such as Smart Start and Fiber One. I feel the fact that I eat these carbs after training is what makes the difference! Like TT stated earlier…its all about carb TIMING and carb CHOICES, both of which you seem to be aware of.

And Jason Norcross made a great point also. Sometimes we get “lazy” with our training (not that I am saying you are, but in general we all do from time to time). I know I am culprit! Timbo pointed me in the direction of Max-OT principles over at the AST website, and they are something you should look into.

I know alot of what I just hit on has already been discussed and are things that you already do and know, but I just wanted to reiterate the importance of some of them…;o) Anyways, I hope it helps. Take care…Tony G

22

JasonL, you’re a better man than me! (grin) Now that you mention it, I remember your saying that you did some pretty hard physical labor at work.

Instead of broad, sweeping suggestions, let me try to get a little more precise.

I am a fan of longer-duration, moderate intensity fasted-state cardio and HIIT, both. But as it relates to FS cardio, the reason I do it is because liver glycogen levels are somewhat depleted after 8, 10, 12 hours of not eating. The liver uses glycogen to maintain blood sugar levels. FS cardio, as described above, further depletes glycogen reserves. By doing FS cardio, you start the day in fat burning mode.

With your stated goals and considering how your body partitions nutrients, I’d still recommend FS cardio as many days as possible. Longer duration means 45 minutes. Moderate intensity means 65 to 75% of MHR. In other words, you’ll sweat like one of the three little pig, but you won’t huff, puff and pant like the big bad wolf.

From there if you were to eat the next four (or so) P+F meals, eating to hit numbers (i.e., protein and fat requirements), you would be providing the body all of what it needed, but keep it in fat burning mode.

Carbs should be kept to <10g (as per JB). Take in just enough carbs to allow for some flavor; onions or salsa or dressing.

Once again, the reason for the FS cardio and the P+F meals is to keep you in fat burning mode. You’re doing nothing to elicit an insulin spike/response. This is the hormonal management Kelly Baggett was referring to (brilliant man, by the way!)

So how to use carbs to bulk? And how to bulk maximizing all that is anabolic and minimizing that which is lipogenic?

Carbs should be taken in at the time the body can best utilize them. Post-workout. PWO is the time your body is least likely to convert carbs to fat. So 2 (or more) P+C meals are in order; the first being Surge, the second being a whole food P+C meal. The perfect carbs for your whole-food P+C meal are starchy carbs; oatmeal, yams, sweet potatoes, brown rice. PWO, your body is primed to refill muscle glycogen and start/support the process of protein synthesis.

So the Cliff Notes? 1). FS Cardio 2). P+F meal up to workout 3). Surge & starchy P+C meal PWO.

And one other thing I didn’t mention that Kelly alluded to is the use of glucose disposal agents. HUGE! My favorite is r-ALA.

If you get a chance, read up on HST, whether you ever decide to do the program or not. Some pretty good science, there, supporting hard-core bulking. Bryan Haycock has his own web site, www.hypertophy-specific.com, with articles and a forum, both.

Good luck to you!!!

23

TT,
You’re the bomb girl!!!

24

Thank you, Tony. I hadn’t read your response when I replied, but I essentially said the same thing YOU did (just a bit more long-winded).

What’s that about great minds? (grin)

25

Joey Z: I know it’s inevitable that I gain fat, but I’m just trying to minimize it. I see your point though.

Tony G: I’m going to definitely going to throw some HIIT sessions in there be it sprinting or one of my favorites-jumping rope. Like you said, I’m going to be consuming most of my carbs with my postworkout meal and probably breakfast. I know others have said to consume most of your carbs after your workout, but I don’t workout till 7:30. With that said, I’m going to consume my surge and have a big P+C meal about an hour later. I’m still cofused about my first meal. I know Berardi has said to consume a P+C meal for your first meal but others like Timbo and Tampa Terry have said to have a P+F meal first. My problem comes in where else do I put my P+C meal if I have my last 2 meals as P+C.

26

Jason,
Seems how you workout so late in the day, I don’t think eating a P+C meal for breakfast is going to hurt you at all. In all actuality, I think it will help! I switched to eating P+C for breakfast (1 cup of oatmeal with 1 scoop of Classic Grow with 1 banana…along with 6 egg whites and half a chicken breast, plus 1 cup of green veggies such as broccoli) and I have made some great gains in the past few weeks, whereas before (when I was eating P+F for breakfast), I wasn’t making any significant gains at all. I then eat nothing but P+F meals leading up to training. I think you can get away with eating P+C for breakfast and then save your other P+C meals for post training. Even Dr. Lowery suggests that the best times to consume carbs are in the mornings and post training…as your body will use the carbs for energy and will be LESS likely to be stored as fat.

Look at it this way, even if you do eat a P+C meal for breakfast…you have like 10+ hours before you train, more than enough time to be certain that you won’t mix and carbs and fats together in consecutive meals. To be honest I don’t see why you wouldn’t eat a P+C meal for breakfast! You gotta restore you glycogen stores somehow, especially since you workout at night and won’t be getting any significant carbs till later in the day. I can almost guarantee that your workouts will only improve with a P+C breakfast. Or at the very least you will have more energy throughout the day. Am I making any sense? I hope I am! Take care my man…Tony G

27

TonyG,

You’re making perfect sense. I’ve been using a P+C meal for breakfast for a long time. It’s just that I had other suggestions. During the summer though, I would train and drink my surge and that would be my last meal of the day. I was mainly trying to keep my leanness and not get any leaner but I’m going to give the whole food post workout meal a try. It ought to help my gains now that I’m trying to gain mass. Any way I’m going to keep breakfast, surge, and my postworkout meal as my P+C meals. Oh and thanks with the suggestions.

28

I’m a little bit late, and I can’t say that I have much to add at this point. Great contributions from Kelly B., Tony G., Tampa-T, Jason N., and Joey Z. to help Jason in his quest.

IMO, when it really comes down to it, it’s all about finding the ideal caloric intake. Us former fatties tend to get jealous of the naturally lean folks who can get away with eating 1000 calories above maintenance to bulk. As a result, we try to do the same and wind up getting fat…even in the presence of androgens. Personally, I plan to incorporate a day of maintenance eating every 4th day with a 300-400 calorie surplus on the other three.

Additionally, I think that there is a lot of merit to Tony’s statement:

“I have found that 2 HIIT sessions plus the occasional 5-10 minute post training low/moderate cardio bodes well for me.”

Works like a charm; although I’m not a huge fan of post-workout cardio, this quantity shouldn’t be a problem if it’s only 2-3 times per week and it doesn’t push your training time past one hour. Another option is to simply incorporate some low intensity walking or cycling at another point in the day (primarily dependent on FFA).

As an aside, I disagree with TT’s recommendation for significant amounts of fasted state aerobic exercise, especially at intensities in the 70% VO2 max range. Kelly talked about managing the hormonal milieu; FS cardio at such intensities is a sure-fire way to jack up cortisol.

Anyway, my plan started today. Yeehaw.

29

I forgot to mention that I’m evaluating progress a bit differently this time around. Basically, I’m not going to worry about checking the scale all the time. I’ll use the mirrow in conjunction with changes in strength to determine whether I’m making progress or not. I’m at the point where I’m in tune with my body enough to know whether I’m improving or not without using scales and calipers.

30

Atmosphere you asked about stimulants effecting the cortisol/testosterone ratio. I dont think stimulants will directly influence testosterone that much unless they prevent you from sleeping and eating enough, but cortisol being a stress hormone is affected by stimulants like caffeine and ephedrine. Ephedrine can serve a useful purpose in helping repartitioning, workout intensity and glycogen uptake but IMO it should be used only during certain times like right before a workout and avoided at others. Eating a caloric surplus along with taking lots of stimulants is a good recipe for negative partitioning. Evolution did not mean for us to be overstimulated and overfed at the same time. What happens in this scenario is exactly what happens to the average american. You get insulin resistance, syndrome x, visceral fat accumulation etc.

To delve a little deeper into my previous post if you have a tendency to gain a disproportionate amount of fat when bulking then ideally you would find and focus on the rate limiting step for you. In the absence of bodily adaptations to a previous higher level of bodyfat you might just have a slow metabolism, low androgen levels, bad carbohydrate tolerance, or suboptimal levels of stimulatory neurotransmitters. These can all be dealt with through exercise, eating, and supplementation habits.

If the entire system is screwed up due to lower leptin levels then you are likely always going to have to diet to a certain extent (even when bulking) if you want to stay lean. In this scenario cyclical diets and rotating your caloric intake can pay big dividends.

Also it is not just formerly fatties who have trouble with this. Virtually everyone, even the naturally lean, runs into this problem eventually. When I was in my late teens and early 20’s I knew several older athletes who would tell me how the metabolism drops like a ton of bricks and fat just starts to accumulate out of nowhere once you hit a certain age, usually around 30. This is commonly accepted, but if you look at the equations for caloric consumption you’ll see a neglibible difference in maintenance calorie intake for a 20 yr old vs that of a 30 yr old of the same height and bodyweight. From my own experiences I found that at a certain age (think it was 26) that fat accumulation did become much easier, almost as if my body was willing itself to put on fat for no apparent reason. I don’t think it was/is metabolic slowdown perse but rather, the signals that determine what the body wants to do change…and the way the body deals with any excess also change for the worse. If lipolysis decreases, protein synthesis decreases, and lipogenesis increases it can be because the cells are getting the signals through hormones that dictate that. Change the signals and you change the homeostatic physical status. We have a lot to play around with now on this topic but the future will offer much more. 10 years ago, pretty much the only effective “cellular altering” supplements were steroids and we didn’t know near as much about how diet influences all this. Imagine where we’ll be 10 years from now?