why is there still a discussion? Caloric surplus=weight gain. Caloric surplus plus weight lifting= muscle gain. Your body will figure out how to survive (i.e. building muscle) with what it has
iv tried a low carb high calarie diet. i lost alot of muscle and got significantly weaker. your body needs good carbs and alot of it to be able to grow. on the other hand i think you can get lean and sill maintain a good body weight with a low carbs and high calarie diet.
If you’re going to avoid carbs when gaining, your caloric intake is probably going to have to be waaaaaay higher than otherwise. I’m dieting and have to drink olive oil all day long to get enough calories to lean out maintaining strength.
Also, you WILL need periodic carb loads (like the 12-24 hour loads on the AD) or you’re not going to gain much muscle (if any) regardless of your caloric intake going keto all the time - at least that’s what DD, MP and LMD say.
IMO, only someone with a very high propensity to gain fat should try gaining with a low carb diet…maintaining size and strength should be easy though, I think someone mentioned a WSM competitor who follows low carb in the off season (with periodic carb ups).
[quote]superalpha wrote:
iv tried a low carb high calarie diet. i lost alot of muscle and got significantly weaker. your body needs good carbs and alot of it to be able to grow. on the other hand i think you can get lean and sill maintain a good body weight with a low carbs and high calarie diet.
[/quote]
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
If you’re going to avoid carbs when gaining, your caloric intake is probably going to have to be waaaaaay higher than otherwise. I’m dieting and have to drink olive oil all day long to get enough calories to lean out maintaining strength.
Also, you WILL need periodic carb loads (like the 12-24 hour loads on the AD) or you’re not going to gain much muscle (if any) regardless of your caloric intake going keto all the time - at least that’s what DD, MP and LMD say.
IMO, only someone with a very high propensity to gain fat should try gaining with a low carb diet…maintaining size and strength should be easy though, I think someone mentioned a WSM competitor who follows low carb in the off season (with periodic carb ups).
superalpha wrote:
iv tried a low carb high calarie diet. i lost alot of muscle and got significantly weaker. your body needs good carbs and alot of it to be able to grow. on the other hand i think you can get lean and sill maintain a good body weight with a low carbs and high calarie diet.
[/quote]
I was chatting with someone who competed in Canada’s Strongest Man this year, and he said quite a few of the competitors were on a low carb or carb cycling diet. Hugo Gerard being one of them if memory serves me.
[quote]MrZsasz wrote:
I was chatting with someone who competed in Canada’s Strongest Man this year, and he said quite a few of the competitors were on a low carb or carb cycling diet. Hugo Gerard being one of them if memory serves me.[/quote]
That’s all fine and well if you are already big. Most of those guys aren’t really trying to put on another 50lbs either. That are at a stage where they might be bringing up lagging muscle groups if anything.
I wouldn’t exactly recommend someone who is just starting to worry about carb cycling. It all depends on what stage of lifting you are at. Most of the guys on this site under 180lbs need to just fucking eat.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
MrZsasz wrote:
I was chatting with someone who competed in Canada’s Strongest Man this year, and he said quite a few of the competitors were on a low carb or carb cycling diet. Hugo Gerard being one of them if memory serves me.
That’s all fine and well if you are already big. Most of those guys aren’t really trying to put on another 50lbs either. That are at a stage where they might be bringing up lagging muscle groups if anything.
I wouldn’t exactly recommend someone who is just starting to worry about carb cycling. It all depends on what stage of lifting you are at. Most of the guys on this site under 180lbs need to just fucking eat.[/quote]
Truth. Also, a carb cycling diet isn’t a low carb (<50g) diet.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
MrZsasz wrote:
I was chatting with someone who competed in Canada’s Strongest Man this year, and he said quite a few of the competitors were on a low carb or carb cycling diet. Hugo Gerard being one of them if memory serves me.
That’s all fine and well if you are already big. Most of those guys aren’t really trying to put on another 50lbs either. That are at a stage where they might be bringing up lagging muscle groups if anything.
I wouldn’t exactly recommend someone who is just starting to worry about carb cycling. It all depends on what stage of lifting you are at. Most of the guys on this site under 180lbs need to just fucking eat.
Truth. Also, a carb cycling diet isn’t a low carb (<50g) diet.[/quote]
Also truth.
Also, Low carb long term without high fat is a disaster waiting to happen. Full fat adaptation is essential for continuing success with a very low overall carb intake and even then anybody who has any idea at all what they’re doing will still have strategically utilized carbohydrate consumption. Done correctly huge calories can be consumed and excellent muscular gains made with less body fat accumulation. (I probably shouldn’t have said that last part)
It’s no secret I am a proponent of this strategy, but the average kid who shows up here will simply add it to their list of attempted magic methods in place of learning sound basics. If they don’t have the consistent discipline to learn and practice those basics they will never have it to follow that kind of diet long enough for it to show results.
Sounds like a fellow AD follower, lol.
I agree.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Also, Low carb long term without high fat is a disaster waiting to happen. Full fat adaptation is essential for continuing success with a very low overall carb intake and even then anybody who has any idea at all what they’re doing will still have strategically utilized carbohydrate consumption. Done correctly huge calories can be consumed and excellent muscular gains made with less body fat accumulation. (I probably shouldn’t have said that last part)
It’s no secret I am a proponent of this strategy, but the average kid who shows up here will simply add it to their list of attempted magic methods in place of learning sound basics. If they don’t have the consistent discipline to learn and practice those basics they will never have it to follow that kind of diet long enough for it to show results.[/quote]
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Sounds like a fellow AD follower, lol.
I agree.
Tiribulus wrote:
Also, Low carb long term without high fat is a disaster waiting to happen. Full fat adaptation is essential for continuing success with a very low overall carb intake and even then anybody who has any idea at all what they’re doing will still have strategically utilized carbohydrate consumption. Done correctly huge calories can be consumed and excellent muscular gains made with less body fat accumulation. (I probably shouldn’t have said that last part)
It’s no secret I am a proponent of this strategy, but the average kid who shows up here will simply add it to their list of attempted magic methods in place of learning sound basics. If they don’t have the consistent discipline to learn and practice those basics they will never have it to follow that kind of diet long enough for it to show results.
[/quote]
In my third year though I have modified it a bit, but will probably be adapted the rest of my life. I can’t imagine ever going back to a carb based metabolism, but I wouldn’t make that the first priority of somebody who still hasn’t learned to train and eat like an adult, no reference to anybody in particular BTW.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
MrZsasz wrote:
I was chatting with someone who competed in Canada’s Strongest Man this year, and he said quite a few of the competitors were on a low carb or carb cycling diet. Hugo Gerard being one of them if memory serves me.
That’s all fine and well if you are already big. Most of those guys aren’t really trying to put on another 50lbs either. That are at a stage where they might be bringing up lagging muscle groups if anything.
I wouldn’t exactly recommend someone who is just starting to worry about carb cycling. It all depends on what stage of lifting you are at. Most of the guys on this site under 180lbs need to just fucking eat.
Truth. Also, a carb cycling diet isn’t a low carb (<50g) diet.
Also truth.
Also, Low carb long term without high fat is a disaster waiting to happen. Full fat adaptation is essential for continuing success with a very low overall carb intake and even then anybody who has any idea at all what they’re doing will still have strategically utilized carbohydrate consumption. Done correctly huge calories can be consumed and excellent muscular gains made with less body fat accumulation. (I probably shouldn’t have said that last part)
It’s no secret I am a proponent of this strategy, but the average kid who shows up here will simply add it to their list of attempted magic methods in place of learning sound basics. If they don’t have the consistent discipline to learn and practice those basics they will never have it to follow that kind of diet long enough for it to show results.[/quote]
Absolutely. Just focusing on eating big is really all a beginner needs to do. Then, once that is established as habit they can start to fine tune things (with things like carb cycling, AD etc…).
I think that people, by nature, simply overcomplicate things. People read about low carb diets, insulin resistance, leptin resistance, serotonin receptor abberations and automically assume that they have these disorders and must instantly go onto a VLCKD! It is as if that they pigeon hole themselves based on some literature that they have read.
My gosh, its like nutritional hypochondria. Yes excessive consumption of poor quality carbohydrates may lead to hyperglycemia / hyperinsulinemic conditions for the those that are
a) Genetically prediposed to such disorders
b) Inactive
The fact of the matter is, high intensity exercise is a great equalizer here. Train your bollocks off and eating carbs is no problem whatsover. Its like anything in this world, overdo it and you have problemes, moderate yourself and you will be fine.
By nature, people assume that there are magic secrets or hidden information. There really isnt. Yes the AD, carb cycling and the like sound sexy, scientific and appealing. But really guys, most of you here would do fine with some carbs, from good quality wholesome food, eaten in appropriate amounts depending on your goal, at times when your body handles them best.
Now, a tidbit, voluminous and intermittent training, like bodybuilding, requires energy provision via glycolysis, depending on the duration of the exercise bout. VLCD and VLCKD necessitate adaptations that result in the disruption of glycolytic energy provision, which may compromise performance. Yes fat adaptation suggests that energy is now provided from fat, but short - moderate duration high intenisty, intermittent exercise requires energy obtained from glycolysis. If you are doing high volumes of training some form of glycogen depletion will always be present, even with the occasional carb up. Great for the train low / compete high crowd, but probably not the best for optimising your high intensity training long term.
Bodybuilders will probably do best with some carbs (even when dieting), athletes definitely, the lay person, maybe not so much.
The amount should depend on bodymass, training volume, goals etc.
Look guys, unless you are competing and need to get to incredibly low bodyfat levels, you can afford to eat carbs. When gaining muscle size, definitely!
[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
<<< Now, a tidbit, voluminous and intermittent training, like bodybuilding, requires energy provision via glycolysis, depending on the duration of the exercise bout. VLCD and VLCKD necessitate adaptations that result in the disruption of glycolytic energy provision, which may compromise performance. Yes fat adaptation suggests that energy is now provided from fat, but short - moderate duration high intenisty, intermittent exercise requires energy obtained from glycolysis. If you are doing high volumes of training some form of glycogen depletion will always be present, even with the occasional carb up. Great for the train low / compete high crowd, but probably not the best for optimising your high intensity training long term. >>>[/quote]
This is well known and has been addressed many times here by myself and others, no offense intended. This disruption in glycolytic energy provision passes with time and especially once one learns to strategically compensate. Nobody with a clue attempts to draw energy for anaerobic work from fat.
Why bother with all this when like you say an intelligent carb based diet is just fine which it is? Because it allows me and anybody else who dials it in the ability to eat very significantly larger amounts of overall calories with very significantly less adipose storage than would be the case with a carbohydrate based metabolism and that same level of intake.
I’m not saying somebody can magically stay very lean and make optimal gains. I AM saying that I’ve been able to eat probably 1000 more calories a day for the past 2 years, make some pretty decent gains and not get any fatter which I know from experience would have been impossible without full lipid adaptation which took a few months to accomplish, but has been definitely worth it.
I don’t go into this that much in the regular forums because these kids that show up here will latch onto it thinking it’s a miraculous ticket to perpetual abs and rocket sled gains which nothing is.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Sounds like a fellow AD follower, lol.
I agree.
Tiribulus wrote:
Also, Low carb long term without high fat is a disaster waiting to happen. Full fat adaptation is essential for continuing success with a very low overall carb intake and even then anybody who has any idea at all what they’re doing will still have strategically utilized carbohydrate consumption. Done correctly huge calories can be consumed and excellent muscular gains made with less body fat accumulation. (I probably shouldn’t have said that last part)
It’s no secret I am a proponent of this strategy, but the average kid who shows up here will simply add it to their list of attempted magic methods in place of learning sound basics. If they don’t have the consistent discipline to learn and practice those basics they will never have it to follow that kind of diet long enough for it to show results.
[/quote]
Has the AD changed at all or been modified over the years? I did it back in college and it worked great. But that was over 10 years ago. I didn’t know anything about healthy fats back then. I just went to the dining hall and crushed bacon and eggs, cheeseburgers without the bun, etc. I definitely got results though. Just curious if new books have come out or its been refined at all.
[quote]steel_12 wrote:
No you cannot gain muscle on a low carb diet.you will gain weight,but not muscle.but thats just my opinion.You need complex carbohydrates to gain muscle.Muscle growth does not occur when glycogen levels are depleted,period.Low carb lowers testosterone and insulin.Both are key elements when wanting to gain muscle.To put it simply, Without insulin,the protein will not be delivered to the muscle efficiently. With low testosterone,protein synthesis will be at a minimum.
Dave Rogerson is right;it is not the intake of carbohydrates that makes you fat,but the mismanagement of carbohydrates.[/quote]
With all due respect,
your a fucking idiot.
Hi Trib,
No offence taken 
Its probably a case that I havent read your posts thats all!
My point was that, and as you point out yourself, people latch onto theories, concepts etc when really there would be no need for them!
And as you have too, I experienced dramatic results myself on very low carb - and indeed ketogenic diets too. I just think that for the vast majority, they probably would achieve really great improvements in bodycomposition and performance gains by simply making good food choices and eating appropriate amounts. This is especially true for those that probably dont have the training history that you do. The period of time spent adapting to the absence of carbs could be spent gaining. Thats not to say that no gains would be experienced during this time, however.
The fact of the matter is low carb lifestyles work, you can gain muscle and lose fat, and it certainly appears that it has really worked for you. I am not, and would never dispute this.
[quote]
"This is well known and has been addressed many times here by myself and others, no offense intended. This disruption in glycolytic energy provision passes with time and especially once one learns to strategically compensate. Nobody with a clue attempts to draw energy for anaerobic work from fat.
Why bother with all this when like you say an intelligent carb based diet is just fine which it is? Because it allows me and anybody else who dials it in the ability to eat very significantly larger amounts of overall calories with very significantly less adipose storage than would be the case with a carbohydrate based metabolism and that same level of intake.
I’m not saying somebody can magically stay very lean and make optimal gains. I AM saying that I’ve been able to eat probably 1000 more calories a day for the past 2 years, make some pretty decent gains and not get any fatter which I know from experience would have been impossible without full lipid adaptation which took a few months to accomplish, but has been definitely worth it.
I don’t go into this that much in the regular forums because these kids that show up here will latch onto it thinking it’s a miraculous ticket to perpetual abs and rocket sled gains which nothing is. [/quote]
[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
<<< The fact of the matter is low carb lifestyles work, you can gain muscle and lose fat, and it certainly appears that it has really worked for you. I am not, and would never dispute this. >>>[/quote]
I haven’t lost any fat since I started eating this way and I’m not real lean, but the point is I haven’t gained any more either despite being north of 40 years old and eating around 5500 calories a day. I know for a personal fact that if I ate that much with the primary energy sources reversed I would have blown up like a medicine ball with a face.
I’m not doing this to get leaner. I’m doing it to get bigger and it’s working.
Having said all that I do not strictly adhere to the AD protocol and have discovered a more optimal way (for me) to place and manipulate my carb feedings though I owe the crowning jewel of lipid adaptation unabashedly to the AD
I really do not fancy myself an elitist, but again, I don’t usually get into all this in the forums because it’s not what most of these youngins need to worry about.
I guess my bottom line is that I believe. properly implemented, more people than it’s commonly recognized would benefit from this kind of lifestyle, but beginners have more foundational habits to build for the time being.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I guess my bottom line is that I believe. properly implemented, more people than it’s commonly recognized would benefit from this kind of lifestyle, but beginners have more foundational habits to build for the time being.[/quote]
I quite agree, and could not have said it better myself. I think too that - and this may have been lost in my previous posts - that low carb diets are great tools, and in fact when adopted as an actual lifestyle, lead to many beneficial adaptations as a result.
I guess my point is that I think for people who perform high volumes of training for a performance related purpose, such as bodybuilders during mass gaining phases, sports people etc, that properly implemented, high quality carbohydates are great - not necessarlily a must (as there are many exceptions to that rule), but certainly beneficial, and that unless you have some experience / guidance implementing them, you may see some performance drop off, albeit at first. Particularly, during strength endurance / anaerobic capactity type exercise.
The principles have stayed the same but you need to tune the carb-ups (when, how much and for how long) as well as your daily carb intake. I am dieting down and carb up just one day (usually sunday) and stick with low glycemic carbs - but have no problem carbing up for one mid-week meal at times.
Also balance your sat fat intake with fish oil, nuts, olive oil, flax seeds (for fiber as well) and be careful with condiments, gum, diet drinks and even cheeses. The initial 12 day (that stretched out to a month for me) phase is what will lay a foundation for the rest of your life.
You need to adapt it to suit yourself.
HOWEVER, you will need to change your dieting strategy pre-contest. I’ve never met any bber using the AD less than 20 weeks out and not suffering from excessive water bloat (possibly from the high intake of bacon lol)
Watch this vid to see what happened in WBF debacle when all of McMahon’s bbers showed up bloated
That was a shock lol.
[quote]DJS wrote:
Has the AD changed at all or been modified over the years? I did it back in college and it worked great. But that was over 10 years ago. I didn’t know anything about healthy fats back then.
I just went to the dining hall and crushed bacon and eggs, cheeseburgers without the bun, etc. I definitely got results though. Just curious if new books have come out or its been refined at all. [/quote]
So it seems as if the general consensus is that you must have some amount of carbs to GAIN muscle. However, if you are in a caloric surplus on a low carb diet and you gain weight, is this added weight fat, not muscle??
SIGH Why is this so difficult?
If you gain strength in a selected rep range in key movements while simultaneously gaining bodyweight (which requires a caloric surplus), you are gaining muscle!
You may need more calories on a low carb diet to reach the same surplus for a variety of reasons. you do not have the advantage of an insulin spike post WO in a low carb mode so strength gains from session to session may be more difficult to come by compared with a targeted carb (breakfast and post WO for ex) approach.
you can compensate for this to some extent by the weekend insulin spike like the AD recommends. While gains MAY be harder to come by this way, gains MAY be leaner if you are fat adapted and train with intensity.
Whether you gain muscle or not depends first and foremost on your training intensity/ability to force strength gains from session to session and THEN on whether youre getting enough calories and protein to recover in time!!! end of story!
if you’re gaining muscle and a little too much fat, then check your diet and track carb intake.
If you’re only gaining fat and no muscle, chances are you’re not gaining significant strength cos you’re training like a pussy!
I don;t know what else to say here.
[quote]Joaquin wrote:
So it seems as if the general consensus is that you must have some amount of carbs to GAIN muscle. However, if you are in a caloric surplus on a low carb diet and you gain weight, is this added weight fat, not muscle?? [/quote]