Gabby Reece on Being Submissive

Off Topic
21

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

[/quote]
This x 1000.

There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant male/submissive female. There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male. There are successful heterosexual couples who operate as equals. To say it has to be one way is just so typical of these forums.

22

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one.

23

[quote]orion wrote:

No, not a single one. [/quote]

I’m trying to think of a notable dominant female/submissive male couple.

Ksnap or anyone else… can you provide an example?

24

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one. [/quote]

And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?

26

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.

I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?

Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.

27

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one. [/quote]

And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?

[/quote]

Define succesful…

I always learn a lot…

Anyhow, if you want to believe, or want to trick yourself into believing that truly equal relationships are possible…

How much experience could I need to know that that this is bullshit?

Anyhow, women hate the pseudo egalitarian nonsense they are bound to have to put up with to get along with with other women, so dont tell me that a short “fuck, no” does not feel good.

Only a little.

28

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

[/quote]

Wasn’t there a time when the women’s liberation movement had some pretty strong opinions about how women should behave? Weren’t many women very vocal about those opinions. Didn’t those opinions eventually affect significant social changes?

If Ms Reece wants to voice some opinions of her own, I don’t really see a problem. We talk about gender roles. It’s part of discussing the human condition. It may very well be pointless, but it’s something that we do.

29

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.

I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?

Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.
[/quote]

Bah it’s the same old shit over and over again with a segment of the population that does not have the capacity to understand or represent the rest of society.

I don’t think there is all that much confusion in reality. I don’t see it outside of this forum.

Talk about it if you want but I’m going to feel feel free to question the point as I see fit and I am questioning the point. Which I am not seeing it yet.

30

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one. [/quote]

And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?

[/quote]

Define succesful…

I always learn a lot…

Anyhow, if you want to believe, or want to trick yourself into believing that truly equal relationships are possible…

How much experience could I need to know that that this is bullshit?

Anyhow, women hate the pseudo egalitarian nonsense they are bound to have to put up with to get along with with other women, so dont tell me that a short “fuck, no” does not feel good.

Only a little. [/quote]

Or if you want to trick yourself into believing that the rest of the planet is living in a fantasy and only you have the special goggles to see the truth well whatever gets you through the day I say :slight_smile:

31

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

[/quote]

Wasn’t there a time when the women’s liberation movement had some pretty strong opinions about how women should behave? Weren’t many women very vocal about those opinions. Didn’t those opinions eventually affect significant social changes?

If Ms Reece wants to voice some opinions of her own, I don’t really see a problem. We talk about gender roles. It’s part of discussing the human condition. It may very well be pointless, but it’s something that we do.[/quote]

I’m pretty sure every moment of every era in society had pretty strong opinions about how women should behave. I’m saying it’s time to grow out of that shit altogether and instead of creating arbitrary rules of conduct, how about people live and adapt to what works, which is kinda like the difference being theory and practice, ya know?

32

^ I mean can anyone even fucking define submissive or feminine?

You can try and we can have an argument about how right or wrong submissiveness is, only to come full circle to find that we don’t mean the same type of submissiveness or femininity or what have you but we we still disagree because well you are right wing macho guy and I’m left wing feminazi butch.

(generic you btw :slight_smile: )

33

I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.

34

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one. [/quote]

And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?

[/quote]

Define succesful…

I always learn a lot…

Anyhow, if you want to believe, or want to trick yourself into believing that truly equal relationships are possible…

How much experience could I need to know that that this is bullshit?

Anyhow, women hate the pseudo egalitarian nonsense they are bound to have to put up with to get along with with other women, so dont tell me that a short “fuck, no” does not feel good.

Only a little. [/quote]

Or if you want to trick yourself into believing that the rest of the planet is living in a fantasy and only you have the special goggles to see the truth well whatever gets you through the day I say :slight_smile:
[/quote]

no trick required

35

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.
[/quote]

Well said!

There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial.

36

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.

I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?

Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.
[/quote]

Bah it’s the same old shit over and over again with a segment of the population that does not have the capacity to understand or represent the rest of society.

I don’t think there is all that much confusion in reality. I don’t see it outside of this forum.

Talk about it if you want but I’m going to feel feel free to question the point as I see fit and I am questioning the point. Which I am not seeing it yet.
[/quote]

I’m simply disputing that it’s an attack on egalitarian or female-dominated relationships. “I like this” != “you must too.”

37

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.

I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?

Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.
[/quote]

Bah it’s the same old shit over and over again with a segment of the population that does not have the capacity to understand or represent the rest of society.

I don’t think there is all that much confusion in reality. I don’t see it outside of this forum.

Talk about it if you want but I’m going to feel feel free to question the point as I see fit and I am questioning the point. Which I am not seeing it yet.
[/quote]

I’m simply disputing that it’s an attack on egalitarian or female-dominated relationships. “I like this” != “you must too.”

[/quote]

I haz subverted you.

You are no longer blind to female sollipsism.

38

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.

I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?

Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.
[/quote]

Bah it’s the same old shit over and over again with a segment of the population that does not have the capacity to understand or represent the rest of society.

I don’t think there is all that much confusion in reality. I don’t see it outside of this forum.

Talk about it if you want but I’m going to feel feel free to question the point as I see fit and I am questioning the point. Which I am not seeing it yet.
[/quote]

I’m simply disputing that it’s an attack on egalitarian or female-dominated relationships. “I like this” != “you must too.”

[/quote]

Oh I’m going to disagree there.

That certainly is dictating what a woman’s behavior should be. By tying her ideas on submissiveness to the loaded, vague and undefined, yet highly desirable condition of femininity she is say much more than ‘this is just what works for me thankyou’

So if I do not subscribe to her behaviors, am I no longer ‘feminine’? Oh boy! Surely it’s clear that defining femininity is indeed dictating how women who are to be perceived as womanly should be acting.

39

[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.

Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.

And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.

[/quote]

Hey Deb. Nice to see you! I haven’t read her book yet, but I do have it on hold at my library. I’ll give a review when I’ve read it through. I think this is interesting, coming from Gabby Reece, given that a lot of men would feel more than a little insecure with her as their wife. She’s physically huge for a woman, accomplished, beautiful, famous… She mentions this as being something she learned the hard way, after filing for divorce after 4 years of marriage, and then changing the dynamics of her marriage in a way that made her happier. It doesn’t sound preachy to me.

As for biology, one of the main messages of the feminist movement was to downplay any biological differences between men and women. I do see some backlash to that, and I believe there have been some negative impacts from the women’s movement. It’s like this with nearly any big social movement. With positive change, there will be some negatives. The pendulum swings, and sometimes too far, or with unintended consequences. As Emily mentioned, I think this can be a very awkward thing to admit. “Hey, I’m grateful for the women’s movement, but in my own life I found that more traditional roles make me happier.” There is an underlying message to young women that being “just a mom” is not going to make you fulfilled, or if you were smarter you would have a career. Of course, Gabby Reece isn’t exactly the typical stay-at-home mother so this was a bit surprising.

Admittedly, I’m someone who has been very happy making the choice to primarily be home raising young kids, so it makes sense that I might find her message more affirming. I realize that we all tend to find opinions that reinforce our own, and ignore or downplay those that don’t. As I recall you are in a long-term relationship but without kids. Thanks for chiming in with your point of view.

Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to have this conversation.

40

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]

Very, very, few.

No, not a single one. [/quote]

And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?

[/quote]

Define succesful…

I always learn a lot…

Anyhow, if you want to believe, or want to trick yourself into believing that truly equal relationships are possible…

How much experience could I need to know that that this is bullshit?

Anyhow, women hate the pseudo egalitarian nonsense they are bound to have to put up with to get along with with other women, so dont tell me that a short “fuck, no” does not feel good.

Only a little. [/quote]

I believe myself to be fairly submissive by nature and my boyfriend is definitely not, but my relationship is much more egalitarian than not. We both earn, we both make decisions, and we both opine on everything under the sun. He can tell me “fuck no” about something that is his decision alone, but it would not go well if he said “fuck no” to something I felt was a shared decision.

That has nothing to do with how I define my femininity, submissiveness, receptiveness, whatever. There are all sorts of double standards in my relationship, but that doesn’t threaten his masculinity or my femininity because we’re flexible, dynamic people.