Further Evidence of Incompetence?

Turns out there is a slight bit of ambiguity to this story – there’s an unaccounted for week between when the 3rd Infantry first hit the site and when the embedded NBC reporter came in with the 101st Airborne:

http://www.redstate.org/print/2004/10/26/102051/57

Now, to me it’s totally implausible to think that multiple truckloads of this powdery chemical were driven out of the area during a war, during a time when the roads were basically shut down, in a week’s time. Here is an estimation that of the time and manpower it would take to move the 380 tonnes of chemicals that are missing:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002869.php

I have no doubt the chemicals were already gone when the 3rd Infantry came in – problem is there is that unaccounted for week.

Thus, I also have no doubt that, despite the extremely small probability of the chemicals disappearing during that week as American forces advanced, I am sure the story won’t die until someone from the 3rd Infantry confirms they found no chemicals when they arrived.

UPDATE:

Seems 3rd Infantry checked, and found a small amount of “suspicious materials” that were likely explosives – however, the amounts were negligible – the cache had been moved before we arrived:

http://instapundit.com/archives/018682.php

Let’s do the math. 380 tons is about 40 truckloads, assuming that they are hauling abount 10 tons each in a straight truck.

That’s a lot to overlook. The material was obviously gone before the US showed up.

Kerry actually sounds silly trying to pin this on Bush. He sounds desperate.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Let’s do the math. 380 tons is about 40 truckloads, assuming that they are hauling abount 10 tons each in a straight truck.

That’s a lot to overlook. The material was obviously gone before the US showed up.

Kerry actually sounds silly trying to pin this on Bush. He sounds desperate.[/quote]

hedo:

I think that as well. The problem is that the 6% undecideds who are in fact silly people to begin with may very well lap this crap up.

What I think is funny is that after Kerry comes out and blasts Bush about this, we are supposed to forgive him because of his “bad intelligence”.

I thought we weren’t allowed to do that. Bush is supposed to be held responsible for believing the CIA, but we are supposed to forgive Kerry for believing the New York Times.

Anyone notice the double standard here?

[quote]The Mage wrote:
What I think is funny is that after Kerry comes out and blasts Bush about this, we are supposed to forgive him because of his “bad intelligence”.

I thought we weren’t allowed to do that. Bush is supposed to be held responsible for believing the CIA, but we are supposed to forgive Kerry for believing the New York Times.

Anyone notice the double standard here?[/quote]

Please…the liberals live under a double standard.

Remember when it was no big deal for the liberals to have a President who was avoided military dute? Bill Clinton fled to Oxford to avoid the draft. Now, Bush is a bad guy for serving his country in the National Guard.

I must tell you however, I don’t think the other side is any bette. Politics…yuck.

Bush is not a bad guy for serving in the National Guard. He is a bad guy for bashing others who actually saw combat in Vietnam. And no, I not just talking about Kerry, which was deplorable enough. I’m talking about his own party member, John McCain. Anybody who serves in the military deserves respect from us all, not be treated like the dirt under a pig’s belly. I will never forgive him and his team for that. It shows what type of character you have when you allow things like that to go on to your benefit. And, before all you right-wing extremist say it, Kerry has done it too. I’m not thrilled with him either.

No lumpy, no roy, no rsu, come on guys, I just posted an article about possible Republican voter fraud and you guys cant even comment on this one?

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

Some good TV coverage of this story:

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_10_24_corner-archive.asp#043656

BRET BAIER’S REPORT ON AL QAQAA [Rich Lowry]

DAVID ASMAN: well a full week before the 101st airborne visited the weapons facility, members of the third infantry division were there. bret bair live from the pentagon.

BRET BAIER: the key is the time line. let’s start with the iaea. they sealed and tagged at least some of the 377 tons of missing explosives at this facility. and now in march 8, 2003, they went back to the site. the iaea says they checked on some of though explosives at the site but did not see all of explosives. they did not check on all of them. they leave and the war starts. and the next date is april 3. that is when the third infantry division arrives at the site. there you see the front gate. this is seven days before dana lewis and the 101st airborne division gets there. they engage iraqi forces who are firing on u.s. troops from inside the facility. the facility is open, they’re getting engaged by iraqi forces inside the facility. the third i.d. takes them out and they do a primary search and they are not looking specifically for the iaea marked materials but it’s not noted in any of the commander’s reports. and then the 101st moves in and they do cursory searches and they move on, and nothing is noted. the next date is may 8, 2003, when the 75th exploytation task force comes in. they search the bunkers and don’t find any of the marked material. u.s. commanders point out if you’re to believe that all of this was looted between april 11 and may 8, that’s 28 days, when convoys are moving up and down the road on those very roads, moving to baghdad, the u.s. troops are pushing forward. it would be tough to get 28 truckloads they say, out of that facility without being engaged by u.s. troops on those roads during that war. because at the time they point out that they were engaging anybody that was suspicious and didn’t stop for a check. now today on the campaign trail in florida, vice president cheney addressed the issue of missing explosives, saying john kerry is playing arm chair general and is ““not doing a good job of it.””

THE VICE PRESIDENT: john kerry doesn’t know if those explosives were even at the weapons facility when our troops arrived in the area of baghdad. the senator’s foreign policy advisor richard holbrooke admitted as much yesterday when he said twice ““i don’t know the truth.”” john kerry though is not one to let a shortage of facts better him. he rushed out to put up a tv ad saying there was a failure to contain these explosives when he had no idea if they were there to be secured.

BAIER: yesterday in washington the interim vice president of iraq when asked if he thought the explosives were looted after the war stated that saddam moved a lot of things before the war and ““it’s not clear if the explosives disappeared before the war toops took place or after the war took place.”” david?

ASMAN: one thing that we do know now, and correct me if i’m wrong, the ““the new york times”” reported on monday that the weapons appeared to have been taken recently, or gone missing within the past month or so. that clearly does not appear to be true, right?

BAIER: that is not true. may 8, 2003, the 75th task force exploitation task force searched the 32 bunkers and found no iaea marked material. which meant in may of 2003, they knew those explosives were gone.

ASMAN: all right, bret baire with the details from the pentagon.

The Wall Street Journal weighed in this morning as well:

Munitions Overkill
October 27, 2004; Page A16

Kudos to the Kerry-Edwards campaign for responding on a dime to the news that some 380 tons of high-grade explosives have gone missing from the Qaqaa munitions depot near Baghdad.

The story was first reported on Monday by The New York Times and CBS News; by Tuesday, the Times headline was the featured visual in a new Kerry campaign ad damning President Bush for having “failed to secure” the cache. “This is one of the great blunders, one of the great blunders of this Administration,” says the junior Senator from Massachusetts.

But here’s something our Democratic friends might keep in mind: The next time you try to set a land-speed record for demagoguing an issue, first check if the story has wheels. In this case, it doesn’t.

In the late 1980s, Saddam Hussein’s regime purchased large stocks of the explosives HMX, RDX and PETN from suppliers in China, Yugoslavia and – deep breath now – France. Ostensibly, these explosives have their civilian applications, such as mining and demolition. But because they are both chemically stable (they only detonate when properly fused) and highly explosive, they also have extensive military uses. They are common in conventional military ordnance, such as mines and artillery shells. They are uniquely well-suited for terrorist attacks; less than a pound of these explosives brought down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in 1988. And they can be used as triggers to set off a nuclear chain reaction.

Following the first Gulf War, the International Atomic Energy Agency put the Qaqaa cache under seal, where it remained until U.N. inspectors were kicked out in 1998. Upon the inspectors’ return in late 2002, some 35 tons of HMX were found to be missing; the Iraqis claimed some of it had been removed for civilian use.

That’s the last we know of their whereabouts. According to a Times source, U.S. troops “went through the bunkers, but saw no items bearing the IAEA seal.” NBC News, which was embedded with the 101st Airborne when it arrived at Al-Qaqaa on April 10, 2003 – the day after the fall of Baghdad – also reports this week that back then it found no sign of the explosives either. Stands to reason: Of course Saddam would remove his precious HMX from its last known location before U.S. cruise missiles could find it.

So much, then, for Mr. Kerry’s suggestion that Bush Administration negligence is to blame for the missing stockpile. The larger question is: Just what sort of story do we have here?

One possibility is that it’s a relative non-story. Several hundred tons of missing high-grade explosives may seem like a big deal. But that has to be viewed in the context of the hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives the U.S. has already seized and the many thousand tons more that may remain hidden.

The second possibility is that the story is every bit as important as Mr. Kerry alleges, just not in the way he means. Al-Qaqaa is known to have been one of the sites where Saddam pursued his nuclear projects in the 1980s; throughout the 1990s it remained under control of Hussein Kamal’s Military Industrial Council, the umbrella ministry tasked with developing Iraq’s WMD capabilities. That seems like reasonable evidence that Saddam remained bent on developing a nuclear bomb, retained at least some of the ingredients to make one and therefore posed a “grave and gathering threat” to the peace of the world.

Both of these possibilities are logical, if contradictory, and both acquit the Administration. But there’s one more thing we’d like to know: How did this story come to light, oh, one week before the presidential election? The IAEA informed the U.S. of the missing stockpile on October 15; according to our sources, it also notified the government that the story was “likely to leak.” Leak, of course, is what it did, and to no one other than CBS’s “60 Minutes.” Funny how that rings a bell.

Whatever the case, what’s certain is that some 380 tons of frightfully powerful stuff has gone missing, and the objective before us should be to locate it, not locate blame. Sensationalized stories and politically motivated leaks don’t exactly advance that cause.

Where are you RSU? You were calling some of us out to comment on this ‘story’ of gross U.S. incompetence. Yet, when the story proved to be another elite media hack job, you vanish.

Come out, come out, wherever you are, and defend the story.

[quote]
lities. That seems like reasonable evidence that Saddam remained bent on developing a nuclear bomb, retained at least some of the ingredients to make one and therefore posed a “grave and gathering threat” to the peace of the world.[/quote]

That’s idiotic. This material is used to detonate an atomic bomb. It’s not a-bomb material or technology. And if 'thousands of tons of this material is already elsewhere on the loose" (paraphrasing) then why would this material be ‘crucial’ to Saddam’s (non-existant) WMD program? Give it up already, Bush’s hand-picked guy David Kay said there was NO Iraqi WMD program after the first Gulf War. Saddam had “ambitions” for WMD, kind of like the way I have “ambitions” to screw Pam Anderson.

It’s always nice when you can get it for FREE.

LOL at the doorknobs who read Drudge, but think CBS and the NY Times are not credible sources of news. Stop dropping the dumbells on your heads, guys!

No Check of Bunker, Unit Commander Says
By JIM DWYER and DAVID E. SANGER
October 27, 2004

White House officials reasserted yesterday that 380 tons of powerful explosives may have disappeared from a vast Iraqi military complex while Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq, saying a brigade of American soldiers did not find the explosives when they visited the complex on April 10, 2003, the day after Baghdad fell.

But the unit’s commander said in an interview yesterday that his troops had not searched the site and had merely stopped there overnight.

The commander, Col. Joseph Anderson, of the Second Brigade of the Army’s 101st Airborne Division, said he did not learn until this week that the site, Al Qaqaa, was considered sensitive, or that international inspectors had visited it before the war began in 2003 to inspect explosives that they had tagged during a decade of monitoring.

Colonel Anderson, who is now the chief of staff for the division and who spoke by telephone from Fort Campbell, Ky., said his troops had been driving north toward Baghdad and had paused at Al Qaqaa to make plans for their next push.

"We happened to stumble on it,‘’ he said. “I didn’t know what the place was supposed to be. We did not get involved in any of the bunkers. It was not our mission. It was not our focus. We were just stopping there on our way to Baghdad. The plan was to leave that very same day. The plan was not to go in there and start searching. It looked like all the other ammunition supply points we had seen already.”

(more)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/27/politics/27bomb.html?oref=login&oref=login&oref=login

Timeline for the missing explosives:

March '03: United Nations inspectors visit Al Qaqaa days before the invasion and verify the seals on HMX bunkers are intact. It is the last time inspectors see the site.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/26/international/27BOMB-GRAPH.html

The bottom line here is that Bush’s clowns in the Pentagon DON’T KNOW what happened to hundreds of tons of explosives at Al Qaqaa. But since George Bush isn’t actually responsible for anything as America’s “The Buck Stops Somewhere Else” president, I’m sure he will come up with some more lame excuses. Anybody remember his phony 2000 campaign promise to “bring personal accountability back to the White House”?

Lumpy:

Try to keep up.

  1. The IAEA verified that their seals were intact, but did not bother to open the seals to verify what was inside the containers, leaving open the possibility of a switch by Saddam even before March 03.

  2. The 3rd Infantry arrived a week prior to the 101st Airborne Division. The 3rd Infantry checked, and found a small amount of “suspicious materials” that were likely explosives – however, the amounts were negligible – the cache had been moved before we arrived:

http://instapundit.com/...ives/018682.php

  1. What do you think are the odds that both the 3rd and 101st missed 380 tonnes of materials? Aside from the reports of the 3rd ID, even if the commander of the 101st said they were not specifically tasked to search for the explosives, how much searching would have been necesssary for them to notice 380 tonnes of this powdery chemical (in other words, we’re talking a lot of volume – this wasn’t dense stuff)?

Get a clue.

[quote]Lumpy wrote:

LOL at the doorknobs who read Drudge, but think CBS and the NY Times are not credible sources of news. Stop dropping the dumbells on your heads, guys!

[/quote]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1159354/posts

Once again Lumpa, you fail to be intelligent.

And in other news…

Russia tied to Iraq’s missing arms

No surprise there.

Here’s a good one for you Lumpy:

http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200410271536.asp

October 27, 2004, 3:36 p.m.
Bomb-gate
The scandal the Times ought to be investigating.

The United Nations is already embroiled in the largest economic scam in world history: the multibillion dollar Oil-for-Food scandal. Now there is reason to ask whether a senior U.N., official also has attempted to influence an American election by spreading misleading information.

To understand why this scenario is plausible, let’s connect some dots.

The headline of the New York Times front-page story on Monday read: “Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished from Site in Iraq.” According to the Times, powerful HMX and RDX explosives ? used to “make missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons” ? were stolen from Al Qaqaa, an Iraqi installation that “was supposed to be under American military control.”

The source for this politically explosive charge? The Times quoted unnamed White House and Pentagon officials acknowledging that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year. But named White House and Pentagon officials have said the opposite. And a senior government official told me flatly: “The stuff in Iraq was missing as of April 10, 2003 ? the day after Baghdad fell.”

The Times also quoted experts at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) saying they assumed Saddam Hussein had moved the explosives ? before the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

But, those experts speculated, perhaps the explosives were only moved to nearby fields where, the Times suggests, they would be “ripe for looting.”

But how? The Times neglects the fairly obvious fact that looters could not have stuffed 380 tons of explosives into shopping bags. To transport that much material would have required about 38 large trucks ? 10 tons per truck. Before the U.S. invasion, such truck convoys moved about Iraq freely. Once the U.S. was in occupation, that kind of effort could hardly have gone unnoticed.

On Tuesday, the Times ran another page one headline: “Iraq Explosives Become Issue In Campaign.” Yes, that’s true ? thanks to the Times.

As for the holes in Monday’s story, the Times tried to fill them this morning with a page A17 story: “Commander Says Brigade Didn’t Inspect Explosives Site,” quoting Col. Joseph Anderson of the 101st Airborne Division, saying that when his troops arrived at Al Qaqaa, they didn’t look for the HMX and RDX. But what does that imply? That tons of HMX and RDX were still there? Or that the explosives were no longer there? The Times doesn’t know and doesn’t appear to care.

What’s more, the Belmont Club argues today, persuasively I think, that the Times “interviewed the wrong unit commander” because it was the Third Infantry Division that first searched Al Qaqaa “with the intent of discovering dangerous materials,” almost a week before the 101st arrived.
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004/10/rdx-problem-resolves-itself-little.html

If the 3ID had found tons of HMX and RMX, we’d have heard about it. On April 5, the Washington Post reported on their discoveries at “Al QaQa,” including “vials of white powder, packed three to a box,” and stocks of “atropine and pralidoxime, also known as 2-PAM chloride, which can be used to treat exposure to nerve agents…”

If the 3ID got so close and personal that they were counting the vials in boxes, how likely is it that they would have missed 380 tons of HMX and RMX?

At this point, Times editors ought to be asking who got their story rolling and to what end?

Here’s one theory: It was Mohammed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Why would he do that? “The U.S. is trying to deny ElBaradei a second term,” a high U.S. government official told me. “We have been on his case for missing the Libyan nuclear weapons program and for weakness on the Iranian nuclear weapons program.”

ElBaradei also opposed the liberation of Iraq. And he would like nothing better than to see President Bush be defeated next week.

If all this is true it would amount to a major scandal: It would mean that a senior U.N. official may be changing the outcome of an American election by spreading false information. And major U.S. media outlets are allowing themselves to be manipulated in pursuit of that goal.

The Times and other news organizations also have ignored this pertinent question: Why did Saddam Hussein have the kinds of explosives favored by terrorists ? and why was he permitted to keep them? Such explosives, according to the Times, also “are used in standard nuclear weapons design,” and were acquired by Saddam when he “embarked on a crash effort to build an atomic bomb in the late 1980s.”

Writing in The Corner, former federal terrorism prosecutor Andrew C. McCarthy pointed out that U.N. Security Council Resolution 687, which imposed the terms of 1991 Gulf War ceasefire, required Iraq to “unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of . . . [a]ll ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities[.]”
http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_10_24_corner-archive.asp#043495

Yet the IAEA made no attempt to force Saddam to comply with his obligations to destroy these “related major parts” of its ballistic missiles.

In addition, McCarthy noted, Iraq was required “not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material or any subsystems or components[,]” and, to the extent it had such items, present them for “urgent on-site inspection and the destruction, removal or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items specified above.”

It shouldn’t require a rocket scientist to understand that a detonator is a key component of a nuclear bomb. But according to the Times, Saddam persuaded ElBaradei that he wanted to hold on to the explosives in case they were needed “for eventual use in mining and civilian construction” ? and ElBaradai agreed.

It gets worse: The U.N. weapons inspectors led by Rolf Ek?us asked the IAEA to dispose of these explosives back in 1995. The IAEA did not do so ? and between 1998, when Saddam forced the U.N. inspectors out of Iraq, and late 2002 when U.S. pressure caused him to allow inspectors to return, 35 tons of HMX went missing. Saddam claimed he used it in Iraq’s cement industry. Evidently, ElBaradei saw no reason to doubt Saddam who ? as noted ? was working hand-in-globe with the U.N. on the Food for Oil program, an enterprise which, we now know, stole billions of dollars from the Iraqi people.

So when all the dots are connected what we see revealed is Bomb-gate ? a controversy that should be about foreign interests that may be improperly influencing the U.S. media to affect the outcome of an American election.

But that story will be written after the elections. For now, the question is who voters will believe.

If they are persuaded that the dangerous weapons went missing because of Bush’s incompetence, he is likely to lose (and ElBaradei will be breaking out the cigars and bongos this time next week). On the other hand, if voters come to believe that this is another instance of Kerry shooting from the hip, basing charges on flawed information, saying anything in order to win, they will almost certainly abandon him.

? Clifford D. May, a former New York Times foreign correspondent, is president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on terrorism.

Here’s an interesting twist [One small, digressive observation: Is it any wonder that CBS and the NYT do their polling together, and seem to share a strong anti-Bush bias, whereas the Washington Post and ABC do their poll together, and aren’t mired in all these controversies?]:

Oct. 27, 2004 ? Iraqi officials may be overstating the amount of explosives reported to have disappeared from a weapons depot, documents obtained by ABC News show.

The Iraqi interim government has told the United States and international weapons inspectors that 377 tons of conventional explosives are missing from the Al-Qaqaa installation, which was supposed to be under U.S. military control.

But International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News and first reported on “World News Tonight with Peter Jennings” indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported.

The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing ? presumably stolen due to a lack of security ? was based on “declaration” from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility.

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency’s inspectors recorded that just over three tons of RDX were stored at the facility ? a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the United States launched “Operation Iraqi Freedom” in March 2003.

The missing explosives have become an issue in the presidential campaign. Sen. John Kerry has pointed to the disappearance as evidence of the Bush administration’s poor handling of the war. The Bush camp has responded that more than a thousand times that amount of explosives or munitions have been recovered or destroyed in Iraq.

Another Concern

The IAEA documents from January 2003 found no discrepancy in the amount of the more dangerous HMX explosives thought to be stored at Al-Qaqaa, but they do raise another disturbing possibility.

The documents show IAEA inspectors looked at nine bunkers containing more than 194 tons of HMX at the facility. Although these bunkers were still under IAEA seal, the inspectors said the seals may be potentially ineffective because they had ventilation slats on the sides. These slats could be easily removed to remove the materials inside the bunkers without breaking the seals, the inspectors noted.

ABC News’ Martha Raddatz filed this report for “World News Tonight.” Luis Martinez contributed to this report.

Wait, after weapons inspector Kay said that Saddam had a massive WMD program ready to go, Lumpy is ignoring that and saying he didn?t?

Why not use actual facts? I cannot believe how often I can give a fact, and have it disputed with complete fantasy, lies, and made up facts.

I will admit it is hard to win an argument when the other side has no problem making stuff up to win an argument. Makes it harder for me relying only on facts and reality.


Damn, yall. Get this straight: Those valuable explosives were probably taken by the Iraqis when we were surrounding their asses and were poised to strike. Besides, guerilla attacks were going to be the norm whether they stumbled upon 380 tons of high explosives or not. Holy shit, people. Seriously think about your posts before you reply and sound like an ass hat. Bashing the president because the enemy did what was right for them to combat U.S. troops is just plain stupid. Hey, why doesn’t anyone talk about the motherfuckers that we kill everyday that are against us?? RLTW

rangertab75

As usual, glad Rangertab is on our side.

Love to see HIM debate John Kerry.

He wouldn’t be as polite as W.

I would laugh.

JeffR

P.S. Ranger, come on over to THE CHALLENGE. I KNOW you have stones.

Perhaps it wasn’t 377 tons at all… Try just over 3 tons!