T Nation

Fun With Religion

This is a post to keep the Death and Dying post form getting hijacked. So, all religions arguments, comments, questions, etc . should be posted here !
To start off, here’s this: What does the Christian concept of Immaculate Conception refer to? Let’s see who knows!

Jesus was born from a virgin - the Immaculate Conception is the way Mary was inseminated without “knowing a man”

Either that or it was the catch Franco Harris made in the Super Bowl against the Dallas Cowboys.

Mary was immaculately conceived.

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
This is a post to keep the Death and Dying post form getting hijacked. So, all religions arguments, comments, questions, etc. should be posted here!
To start off, here’s this: What does the Christian concept of Immaculate Conception refer to? Let’s see who knows![/quote]

Um…isn’t it the belief by the Catholic church that the Virgin Mary was somehow “special.” In the sense that she was born free from the stain of original sin that supposedly stains all of man-kind? So she was as perfect as a human could get without being God therefore the only appropriate vessel for his kid.

Whay are you asking this?

I’m not Catholic, but this was interesting to me, since I really didn’t know…

SOURCE: www.catholic.com

"…It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the “Virgin Birth.” Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain - that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings…"

Now go impress your friends!!!

So, while that is the Catholic DOCTRINE regarding immaculate conception, what is the BIBLICAL support for the belief?

[quote]brider wrote:
So, while that is the Catholic DOCTRINE regarding immaculate conception, what is the BIBLICAL support for the belief?[/quote]

The translation of the Hebrew “almah” into the Greek “parthenos” in the book of Isaiah (7:14). While “parthenos” does mean “virgin”, “almah” means “woman of childbearing age”. It is applied most commonly to unmarried women, but occasionally to newlyweds.

The Greeks apparently concluded that the most common usage was the only relevant one, and since an unmarried woman was forbidden to have sex, she must be a virgin. This is not altogether bad logic, and is a reasonably sensible way to translate languages that don’t match up exactly, but in this case it snowballed into a belief that Isaiah was prophesying the birth of a messiah. This has never been an accepted view of Isaiah within rabbinical circles.

Ockham’s razor demands that we consider the more plausible explanation that someone at the time of Isaiah’s proclamation was pregnant, and got that way in the usual fashion; otherwise, we are forced to make the further leap of believing that Ahaz was to be comforted by a prophecy of salvation several centuries down the road, rather than within the year.

That does not make sense. See, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca lives on Endor. That does not make sense. Why would a seven foot tall Wookiee want to live on Endor with a bunch of little stumpy Ewoks? Here – look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey.

What a great catch that was.

[quote]CDarklock wrote:
That does not make sense. See, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca lives on Endor. That does not make sense. Why would a seven foot tall Wookiee want to live on Endor with a bunch of little stumpy Ewoks? Here – look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey.[/quote]

Isn’t Chewbacca from Kashyyk? But I digress…

[quote]brider wrote:
So, while that is the Catholic DOCTRINE regarding immaculate conception, what is the BIBLICAL support for the belief?[/quote]

Easy answer brider - there isn’t any. The Bible is quite clear. Romans 3:23"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." then Romans 6:23"The wages sin pays is death." Did Mary die? Of course. Only sinners die as an unavoidable eventuality. Jesus only died because he was murdered otherwise, being perfect as some assert Mary to be, he would not have died and neither would she if perfect, unstained by sin.

Which leads to a real conundrum for those who believe we have some immortal part of us, a ‘soul’, that lives on after our death. If humankind was meant to be perfect and had that situation never changed, what good would a an immortal soul do you if you never died?

Fish

CDarklock,
It’s beem awhile since I looked at the subject. But I believe that the Isaiah prphecy that you noted was supposed to be some sort of comfort of an impending victory. I am told that the prophecy came true in the next chapter, according to my Jewish friends.

[quote]brider wrote:
So, while that is the Catholic DOCTRINE regarding immaculate conception, what is the BIBLICAL support for the belief?[/quote]

I’m not certain that there is any.

But, according to http://www.catholic.com the doctrine is derived from Luke 1:28, which, according to www.catholic.com, reads “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you”, “full of grace” being a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, and expressing a characteristic quality of Mary.

HOWEVER, this seems to be a weak argument in the face of the fact that, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ was the ONLY sinless human ever to exist, and WAS born without the sin nature. To attribute this same characteristic to Mary would seem to detract from the fact that it is CLEARLY and UNIQUELY ascribed to Christ throughout the New Testament, whereas it is flimsily alluded to (at best) in the case of Mary, as seen above. If Mary was already sinless, what then would be the point of bringing Christ into the world at all? Why didn’t SHE go to the cross? Why not a word about HER parents? The Bible does not seem to be clear on exactly what was special about Mary; it does say that she was “favored among women”, though (which she obviously was).

I was just asking to see how many people knew this, most think it refers to the virgin birth, which is incorrect.
I went to the art museum on Labor Day, and by one of the paintings of Mary it spoke of the Immaculate Conception. It seemed to me that Mary was chosen by God to be free from orginal sin (which seems dumb to me in the first place, you start off in debt?! Aw, crap!) in order to give the Son of God a “clean” vessel to be brought into this world. Or I could be wrong :slight_smile:

To-Shin Do

Takuin, you’re such a geek. Why would you write something like this when it really has nothing to do with the thread?!

Actually, I’m just pissed because I was going to write the exact same thing but you beat me to it. :slight_smile:

Cheers

[quote]Takuin wrote:

Isn’t Chewbacca from Kashyyk? But I digress…[/quote]

Ok 12 years of Catholic school teaching has just been rushed upon me. According to the nuns, Mary did carry original sin yet reframed from performing sins, so God sent Gabrial to her and told her she would carry Jesus. Mary, again according to the nuns, did not die instaed God brought Mary to heaven without dieing

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
brider wrote:
So, while that is the Catholic DOCTRINE regarding immaculate conception, what is the BIBLICAL support for the belief?

Easy answer brider - there isn’t any. The Bible is quite clear. Romans 3:23"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." then Romans 6:23"The wages sin pays is death." Did Mary die? Of course. Only sinners die as an unavoidable eventuality. Jesus only died because he was murdered otherwise, being perfect as some assert Mary to be, he would not have died and neither would she if perfect, unstained by sin.

Which leads to a real conundrum for those who believe we have some immortal part of us, a ‘soul’, that lives on after our death. If humankind was meant to be perfect and had that situation never changed, what good would a an immortal soul do you if you never died?

Fish[/quote]

This is my own interpretation from reading the Bible, and has the possibility of being incorrect. But, being that I said it, it’s probably not

I am under the impression that the “death” at issue is not the physical death, but the sentence of Hell after the earthly passing.

I am in a particularly snarky mood today…why doesn’t everyone share the most ridiculous thing they have ever heard, had done to them, seen done to others etc regarding “religion.” It can be any religion from mainstream Christians to the annoying Hare Krishnas at the airport.

Three words: World Trade Center

Oh, heck, here’s three more: Russian elementary school.

Snark away, tiffy :slight_smile:

[quote]Takuin wrote:
Isn’t Chewbacca from Kashyyk? But I digress…[/quote]

Yes, but I was quoting Johnny Cochrane’s “Chewbacca defense” from an episode of South Park.

Besides, the planet Endor was based on concept art for Kashyyk, which misled many fans into believing that Endor was the Wookiee home planet because they had previously seen the concept art for Kashyyk. Sort of like the question of how many original Star Trek episodes there are – the question hinges on whether you count “The Menagerie” as one episode or two.

But I digress. :wink:

[quote]wishin wrote:
I believe that the Isaiah prphecy that you noted was supposed to be some sort of comfort of an impending victory.[/quote]

That it was. However, oddly enough, there is no record of this prophecy coming true. We believe that it did, in much the same way that the Greeks believed “parthenos” was a proper translation of “almah”: since Isaiah is recognised as a prophet, his prophecies must have come true (see Deuteronomy 18:22).

Unfortunately, this logic is somewhat circular, essentially saying the book of Isaiah is true prophecy because we would not place false or unknown prophecy on the same shelf with true prophecy.

I don’t consider this a compelling argument. Generally speaking, I take most of the prophetic writings in the Hebrew scripture with a large dose of salt, since I believe the Jewish desire for prophecies to be fulfilled commonly subjugated their better judgement – because, as God Himself has noted many times, we are a stiff-necked people.

From a more impartial stance, I believe that most biblical scripture beyond the Torah is significantly colored and influenced by the author’s personal interpretations and beliefs. Like it or not, the bible was written down by men, and men tend to fuck things up.