T Nation

Fun With Glucose

Question for all you nutrition experts in the house. I drink 1scoop Surge + 20g ea. of maltodextrin/dextrose during and then again after my workout. 15min after it’s all gone, blood glucose reads 150mg/dl. 90min after, reading is 145mg/dl. Should I wait until values return to my baseline (70-80mg/dl), or have the second post workout shake at the 90min mark like I always have done? Another question, shouldn’t my glucose be much lower than that at 90min (I don’t use any caffeine)? My goal is just to gain muscle, bf% no concern. And nope not diabetic either, just like to know what goes on inside. Thanks for any knowledge.

That does sound odd that your blood glucose drops only 5 points in 90 minutes. Sounds a lot like insulin resistance. Have you tried taking readings at 30 and 60 minutes?
Anyway, if your blood glucose is already that elevated I wouldn’t see any need in taking in more carbs at that time.

Marc, as Kelly said, that is a little strange that your blood glucose is only going down 5 pts in 90 minutes. You’ve probably developed some insulin resistance from all those years of slamming 50 lbs of maltodextrin after your workouts and the following insulin induced comas in class. Or maybe it could be from too much goats milk during your workouts. Try switching to marmoset milk and see if that helps.

Questihn relating to maltodextrin. I take malto with my PW shake but I cannot tell how much would approximate 50 g of carbs. I have been guessing around 4 tablespoons, but I am not sure.

Just curious what everyone else thinks (maybe Kelly could offer an insight): what about adding some sort of insulin mimicking supplement like vanadyl sulfate (or even just plain cinnamon). Obviously, if he’s been sucking down a ton of sugar and not getting fat during this time, his body is able to put it all to use. As such, it seems the issue would be getting to the muscle cells more quickly. Just shooting from the hip here.

While I have pondered insulin resistance, the one contradicting factor that stares me in the face is that I am about 6% BF, ALL the time. But it still could be…Nick you are right, those college shakes used to put me in a coma, but since I have stopped taking in 9lbs of caffeine per day (a month ago) I have never felt better, actually feel energetic from carbs instead of partially conscious. As far as malto dosages, 1/3 cup= 40g from my calculations. The only other measurements I have taken have been 15min=155, and 90min dropped to 91mg/dl. I plan to try adding ALA @ 400mg, just waiting for it to arrive in the mail so I can test. I thought that cinnamon only increased insulin sensitivity at fat cells? Vanadyl…I thought this was like an ugly, beat up cousin to ALA? Correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks for the help fellas

I’ve always thought 1/3 cup = 50g of sugar (not to split hairs). Then again, I doubt 10g would make that much of a difference.

I dont think you can rely too much on body composition as a measure of insulin sensitivity. Afterall even if you’re insulin resistant you still won’t put on fat unless you’re taking in calories above maintenance. I would say I am in the initial stages of insulin resistance as well (very hypoglycemic glucose response curve even when eating something like a couple of servings of oatmeal), this is probably due to a genetic succeptibility to type II diabetes and insulin resistance yet I always stay between 6-9% bf. As far as vanadyl sulfate goes, I dont believe it increases your body’s sensitivity to insulin as it works on its own through another mechanism. It will, however, enable your muscles to take up more carbohydrates for glycogen storage and thus you’ll get more bang per gram of carb. Some people respond to it a lot better than others.

Kelly - wouldn’t a hyperglycemic response indicate insulin resistance. If your glucose values are not increasing significantly, that would indicate that you are easily handling that quantity of carbohydrates.

I posted last night in a state of partial consciousness…one eye open…drool running down my chin. I MEANT to say 120min dropped to 91mg/dl, not 90min, that was still in the 140’s. I have access to cheap vanadyl from the store I work at, so I’ll run a test if anyone’s interested (let me know). I’ll try my cocktail with vanadyl, then next time with ALA, and post 30, 60 and 90 min responses. I thought I remember Tim saying a while back that Surge would drop glucose into severe hypoglycemic levels due to the huge insulin response it created. Maybe since I use a 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein instead of 2:1, the glucose response is thrown off. Good to know about insulin resistance not nessecarily relating to body fat, that may indeed be the case for me.

How are you testing for your glucose level? Am interested in trying this.

Good question Jason! Yes, you are right that a hyperglycemic glucose response curve would indicate insulin resistance but a lot of info. I’ve read over the years seems to indicate that in many people a hypoglycemic glucose response curve due to hyperinsulinemia will occur first… maybe for years before the actual insulin resistance in the muscle and fat cells sets in. So in my case although my muscles are still quite sensitive to insulin my body produces more insulin in response to carbohydrates then it should. Theoretically, should this continue over the years (if I were not to eat the way I do etc.) then my body would keep producing all this insulin but over time the cells would lose sensitivity and I would likely switch from having a hypoglycemic response to a hyperglycemic response.

Chris5743891267: Go to a drug store. You can pick up an AccuCheck Active for pretty cheap. Testing strips are pricey though, about 50 cents each. You will eventually need to buy new lancets (needles) as well, but if you are using it on just yourself, you can get 10-15 uses out of one before it feels like you’re trying to break the skin with a chopstick. I wouldnt waste your money on the glucometers with memory, they are waaaay more expensive, just keep a log.

Ok Kelly, I see and understand what you are saying, but I can’t see why you would come to the conclusion that you are in the beginning stages of insulin resistance.

Do you have any of the other symptoms that usually accompany hyperinsulinemia - hypertension, dyslipidemia, or abdominal obesity?

Without a concurrent insulin measurement to confirm your "insulin resistance", it just seems more likely that you tolerate your carbohydrates well rather rather have a hyperinsulinemic response.

If I'm on the wrong path, let me know. I'd love to hear more about this.

You’re right that I should get an insulin measurement and I’d like to get one done as well just to see what the #'s are. All I do know is that up until the age of 25 or so I never experienced symptoms of hypoglycemia and had a much easier time staying lean eating a high carb diet. A couple of years ago I started noticing symptoms of hypoglycemia and when I did gain fat it would be gained in the interior abdominal region (the correct term escapes me) :slight_smile: So I went and bought a glucometer and did some tests on myself. Ive found upon eating just about any carbohydrate food alone that within 60-90 minutes I end up with a glucose level below what my normal fasting glucose is (70-78)…I once experimented eating a 200 gram potato and 90 minutes later I was shaking and had a blood glucose level of 55…which, as near as I can tell, is a symptom of hyperinsulinemia. I do think there is plenty of evidence that hyperinsulinemia will eventually lead to insulin resistance so I am just theorizing on myself.

Thanks Kelly! Your last explanation really makes a lot of sense. I would definitely say that you are on to something. As described, your symptoms clearly agree with a hyperinsulinemic response to carbohydrates. If you ever get an OGTT with a concurrent glucose and insulin measurement, I’d love to hear about the results. What types of changes have you had to make since discovering these symptoms? More cardio, less total calories, greater percentage of fat in the diet as compared to carbs? Thanks again for sharing some interesting and useful information.

Here’s some updates for those interested: Surge cocktail + 1220mg Fenugreek (extract unknown) showed no significant change at 30/60/90. A meal consisting of 105g carbs (mostly maltodextrin, some glycerol) + 64g protein + 6g Fat along with 600mg Alpha Lipoic Acid > 30min > 77mg/dl! That’s lower than my fasting level. I’ll try it with the surge cocktail and post results tomorrow. Havent tried vanadyl yet.

Another interesting find, my girlfriend tested glucose levels after ingesting some “low carb” bars w/glycerol. The Myoplex Lo Carb (net impact carbs 3g) showed no significant glucose elevation. A Biochem Strive bar (also net impact carbs 3g) showed a huge glucose elevation…from mid 70’s to 117mg/dl. Net impact my ass.

Hey Jason. I went for almost 2 years where I pretty much just ignored the symptoms had lots of trouble with energy levels, mood swings, etc. I used to absolutely despise cardio or anything even remotely related to any sort’ve endurance training. Since I began incorporating renegade training about 1.5 years ago i’ve come to like conditioning such as sprints, rope skipping, bodyweight gpp etc. so I do some form of that 6 days a week now. I also have changed my diet with a lot more protein and I eat a ton of fibrous veggies etc. I don’t have any cravings for starchy carbs anymore but I do try to get in about 50 grams or so of some type of carb postworkout. Overall I usually don’t consume more than 1 gram of carb per lb. of bodyweight per day and at that level I feel fine and have zero food cravings. I am able to build muscle fine on this limited carb intake and can more easily gain solid muscle weight without fat gain now then I could back in my early 20’s so I guess the diet is working quite well.

Here’s some updates for those interested: Surge cocktail + 1220mg Fenugreek (extract unknown) showed no significant change at 30/60/90. A meal consisting of 105g carbs (mostly maltodextrin, some glycerol) + 64g protein + 6g Fat along with 600mg Alpha Lipoic Acid > 30min > 77mg/dl! That’s lower than my fasting level. <<

Mark, please keep me posted. This is very interesting for me to read. So apparently that 600mg ALA helped out a great deal! Let me ask you this, when you weren’t taking ALA and had the high blood sugar for hours and hours, did you feel “bloated” for that time at all, and when you took the 600mg ALA, did that have any impact on how you felt (if you had felt bloated, maybe now you felt less so).

Thanks,

keep us posted,

J

Justin, to answer your questions: I never feel bloated, not even with really high blood glucose. Strangely enough, when I took the first tests, I was starting to get hungry at about 90min, even though my glucose was sky high. The test I ran with the ALA caused me to feel VERY engergetic, almost like I was on power drive or caffeine. Of course this may have just been coincidental, but I have decided to use ALA with my 3 daily P+C meals…and I will keep testing to see if consistencies exist. Still haven’t tested ALA with the surge mix yet, will tonight or tomorrow.