T Nation

Full Shoulder Pull Movements


#1

Hi!
I’m looking for an exercise that’ll hit the entire shoulder, a pull movement that could be done with free weights.
It’s to replace the upright row, screws my shoulders up.
I was thinking maybe rear delt rows even if they don’t really hit the full shoulder, and then maybe focus on the lateral if it becomes a weak point in the future?

The way I have it set up now is on upper A I have 3 push (incl. military press for shoulders) and 2 pulls and then 1 biceps isolation and 1 triceps isolation.
To even it out I have my Upper B routine set to 2 push and 3 pulls (incl. shoulders) and 1 biceps isolation and 1 triceps isolation.


#2

Do you mean you have 3 pushing movements for shoulders or 3 pushing movements, including one for shoulders?

Either way, I feel worrying about whether your movements are push or pull is irrelevant if it hits the desired muscles.


#3

Just the one for shoulder.
Well I keep hearing people saying my routine was uneven with the push:pull stuff, but everyone seems to be saying different things so idk…
Could I keep doing 2 for chest, 2 for back and then 1 push for shoulders, is it necessary to keep it even? 'cause I just figured, 1’s for shoulders anyway so idk what the really big deal would be…


#4

Not sure if my message earlier came through or not but in case it didn’t;
I meant I do 2 push exercises for my chest and tris and then 1 for the shoulders which happens to be the military press.

But I’ve heard so many people say you need an even push:pull ratio, some say you need more pulls than pushes, some don’t care so I’m not really sure who to listen to lol
I don’t really like to over-complicate my training either, I’m not trying to get on a stage and whatnot.


#5

Face Pulls hit the Rear and Middle Deltoid well and are great for lifters with banged up shoulders.
Wide grip High Pulls are also good but you’ll need to test it to see if it hinders your shoulder issues.
Also on the Upright Rows they can be done to a certain degree with dumbbells. The barbell causes problems because it internally rotates your shoulders causing impingement however with dumbbells you can hold them at a more suitable angle.

Lateral Raises hit the Middle Deltoid well and are easy to fit in to any routine as neither biceps or triceps are used.

Your Front Deltoids are covered on your Upper A day with Military Press and of course are worked in most pressing exercises as well.

IMO Front Delts are for pushing. Rear delts are for pulling and Middle Delts can fit into either category however they are normally trained with Front Delts.


#6

Something I did in the past because of painful shoulders, and to try and isolate the lateral head from the upper traps:

A wide®-grip upright row, pulling with your elbows only until your upper arms are parallel with the ground. At the topmost point, your elbows should be at a 90 degree angle. You can do that heavier with a hold at the top, or lighter for more reps.

At that point in time, lateral raises were too painful for me, but these were fine.

Just another option.


#7

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
Just the one for shoulder.
Well I keep hearing people saying my routine was uneven with the push:pull stuff, but everyone seems to be saying different things so idk…
Could I keep doing 2 for chest, 2 for back and then 1 push for shoulders, is it necessary to keep it even? 'cause I just figured, 1’s for shoulders anyway so idk what the really big deal would be…[/quote]

I think a push/pull ratio is important, however I’ve always taken it to mean that for every push movement, I compensate appropriately with pull at some point in my training block ie. for every set of bench, I’ll do an appropriate number of rows.


#8

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
I’m looking for an exercise that’ll hit the entire shoulder, a pull movement that could be done with free weights.[/quote]
Power cleans would be my first thought. Pull-ups or chin-ups would be the next best bet. And no, pull-ups aren’t a “shoulder exercise”, but they’re good, so do them. Lots.

[quote]The way I have it set up now is on upper A I have 3 push (incl. military press for shoulders) and 2 pulls and then 1 biceps isolation and 1 triceps isolation.
To even it out I have my Upper B routine set to 2 push and 3 pulls (incl. shoulders) and 1 biceps isolation and 1 triceps isolation.[/quote]
What does your entire training week look like? The days, exercises, and (most importantly) the sets and reps.

Also, out of curiosity, what’s your current height, weight, and general fat level (lean, kinda pudgy, etc.)?


#9

Just do facepulls and superset them with side raises. Or do side raises separately. They won’t kill you. The objective of attempting to maintain an “optimal” push/pull ratio is to make sure all the muscles get trained evenly. You don’t have to adhere to it blindly when it comes to things like this.


#10

I work out at home, so I have a barbell, (adjustable) dumbbells, weight plates obviously, bench, pull-up bar, weight vest and a couple resistance bands, I’m definitely open to feedback as I had to adjust it to the equipment I have available.
This is my routine:
[ and { = supersets
Upper A:
Incline bench press ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps (doing incline first works best for me)
Bench press ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Chin-ups ? 3 sets, 10-12 reps
Bent-over rows ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Bent-over reverse rows ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Military press ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Skullcrushers ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Barbell curls ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps

Lower A:
Mountain climbers ? 1 set to failure
Hamstring bridges ? 3 sets, 12-15 reps
Goblet/lumberjack squats ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Twisting lunges - 3 sets, 8-12 reps
One-leg calf raises ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
[Leg extensions ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
[Leg curls ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps

Core:
[Landmine twists ? 3 sets, 16-20 reps
[Plate twists ? 3 sets, 16-20 reps
{Windshield wipers ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
{Hanging leg raises ? 3 sets, 8-15 reps
[Bottoms up ? 3 sets, 12-15 reps
[Otis up ? 3 sets, 12-15 reps

Upper B:
Landmine press/reverse-grip bench press ? 3 sets, 10-12 reps (kinda change it up every once in a while)
Close-grip dumbbell press ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Pull-ups ? 3 sets, 10-12 reps
T-bar rows ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Upright rows - 3 sets, 8-12 reps (I need to change this one or possibly lower the weights/ROM. Thinking on pullovers or rear delt rows)
French press ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Hammer curls ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps

Lower B:
Mountain climbers ? 1 set to failure
Hamstring bridges ? 3 sets, 12-15 reps
Deadlifts? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Hamstring curls ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
Barbell calf raises ? 3 sets, 15-20 reps
[Leg extensions ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps
[Leg curls ? 3 sets, 8-12 reps

And I’m about 5’7-5’8 and 141-145lbs maybe? I’ve always been small lol I’m really low in body fat, always have been.
I don’t have a scale at home, so I only get to weigh myself at grandma’s occasionally. I’m not too focused on my bodyweight though to be honest, maybe I should be idk, I just think it’d stress me out too much due to being bullied growing up. I just focus on how I feel and what my physique looks like, if that makes sense.


#11

I’m not sure why most of the dashes show up as question marks, just ignore those lol


#12

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
maybe focus on the lateral if it becomes a weak point in the future
[…]
I’m about 5’7-5’8 and 141-145lbs maybe? I’ve always been small lol I’m really low in body fat][/quote]
Okay so, the good news is that you don’t need to worry about “weak points” for quite some time. You’re a small dude (no offense), so overthinking things like “building medial delts” should be pretty low on your priority list for a while. You can see some great progress by simplifying your approach and focusing on building your base.

It sorta makes sense but also sorta doesn’t, because changes in bodyweight are a huge indicator of progress, or lack of progress.

Also, I didn’t catch it, but what exactly is your current goal? Your program could use some improvements (trimming exercises and playing with the set/rep schemes), but it doesn’t make sense to suggest more specific changes without knowing what we’re supposed to be working towards.

Lastly, since you have resistance bands, another simple and effective option to your original question would be band pull-aparts. Discussed here: https://www.t-nation.com/training/8-tips-to-give-your-program-more-pull


#13

Yeah I figured I don’t really have to focus on weak points and stuff yet.

My goal is simply to put on a bit of mass, not like a bodybuilder though, not yet anyway that goal might come down the road though.

What do you suggest I do with the programme?


#14

Logically, the fastest way to put on mass is to train like a bodybuilder. It is common sense. It’s like saying the sky is blue. This logic only becomes lost on the internet.


#15

Yeah no kidding lol but what should I do with the routine to make it optimal?
This one I’m making way more gains than the previous one I was on.


#16

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
Yeah I figured I don’t really have to focus on weak points and stuff yet.

My goal is simply to put on a bit of mass, not like a bodybuilder though, not yet anyway that goal might come down the road though.

What do you suggest I do with the programme?[/quote]

By mass, I assume you mean lean (ish) muscle? I think you have a lot of unnecessary exercises and very limited rep schemes. I think you should probably just use a prewritten program, I just don’t think you gain any benefit from making up your own at this point.

I know, it’s a boring answer, right?


#17

Not a boring answer lol
I just used a template that said 2 push, 2 pull, 1 shoulder and then 1 biceps and triceps iso.

What about rep schemes though, what would you suggest?


#18

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
Yeah no kidding lol but what should I do with the routine to make it optimal?
This one I’m making way more gains than the previous one I was on.[/quote]
I already answered this in my 1st post in this thread. Also, why would you want to change anything if you’re making gains?

Optimal would be finding someone you want to look like in real life and training with him.


#19

[quote]Buffaroo wrote:
My goal is simply to put on a bit of mass, not like a bodybuilder though[/quote]
Can you get more specific? I have a feeling your version of “a bit of mass” is different than most of ours. You could put on 20 pounds and still not look “like a bodybuilder”.

Easiest thing to do, if you wanted to stay with an upper/lower split for whatever reason, is to jump on this routine: https://www.t-nation.com/training/blending-size-and-strength-20
Make intelligent exercise swaps as needed. Since you don’t have a squat rack, heavy lumberjack squats will work well enough for now. Instead of the leg press, reverse lunges or step-ups will do.

Otherwise there are tons of splits on the site that will work well. But the training is only half the battle. Nutrition is the other half. Knowing is also half the battle.

For the nutrition, which is where the “mass” will actually come from, I like this approach:


With weekly weigh-ins (even if it means visiting gram every Sunday. Bring flowers. You’ll quickly become her favorite grandkid) and adjusting food quantities based on weekly scale progress.


#20

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Optimal would be finding someone you want to look like in real life and training with him.[/quote]
If this is at all possible, I’ll rescind my previous post and super-endorse this.

Training with a more experienced lifter live and in-person, even if it means using what the Internet would call “a bad plan”, can be a huge benefit. Hands-down one of the “what I’d do differently if I could start all over” options.