Full Primobolan Low Dosage, and HCG and PCT Info

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
You are definitely entitled to your decisions. However, your understanding of all this is flawed.

  1. You will be suppressed no matter what you use. Shutdown is dependent on length of time on and on different compounds, much less on dosage.

  2. Maintenance of testicular size and function does not indicate you are not shut down because you are forgetting that LH is produced in the pituitary. Use of HCG (which only MIMICS LH) will indirectly shut down your pituitary through the negative feedback loop. This is why you need clomid or nolva for PCT.

  3. Anything worth using (causing you to exceed your natural test range) will suppress you to a large degree. Otherwise, you might as well use OTC products like DAA which will bring you to the upper range of natural test levels if you want a slight boost in performance.

Simply put, your cycle is not worth your time. There are other alternatives which will give you the same results which do not require you to suppress or shutdown your natural test production and having to PCT.[/quote]

thank you for the very informative response which i was looking for and made true sense. i just want you to confirm the foll;

  1. shutdown occurs to duration rather than qtties. but same applies for recovery? i guess 300 test / week won’t need the same amount of time and pct for recovery as 1000 / week

  2. yes hcg will shut me down due to the negative loop but wont it aid in recovery due to (mimicking lh) during the cycle? it would also serve its purpose to recover my suppressed tests from suppressing substances. thats the reason why i keep bringing up hcg in case i want to subs test
    [/quote]

dose does not have a direct relationship with HPTA suppression… however, time on does appear to have that effect.

there are tons of studies that show 50% suppression in 1-2 weeks on mild doses (20 mg/day) of stuff like anavar and winstrol.

if you add in any androgen (test, deca, primo, etc), then your body will produce less testosterone in order to maintain homeostasis. if you’re gonna be suppressed, then the key is to take enough of an androgen to make worthwhile gains…
[/quote]

Perfect

one more thing

why do many users claim that gains from larger doses of primo although are slower, tend to stay longer than test or other aas. do you agree?[/quote]

less water retention on cycle, most likely. lots of guys mistake that for gains on cycle…

to be honest, i don’t know anybody that uses Primo except for female athletes. it’s just too expensive for most guys i know for such modest gains…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
You are definitely entitled to your decisions. However, your understanding of all this is flawed.

  1. You will be suppressed no matter what you use. Shutdown is dependent on length of time on and on different compounds, much less on dosage.

  2. Maintenance of testicular size and function does not indicate you are not shut down because you are forgetting that LH is produced in the pituitary. Use of HCG (which only MIMICS LH) will indirectly shut down your pituitary through the negative feedback loop. This is why you need clomid or nolva for PCT.

  3. Anything worth using (causing you to exceed your natural test range) will suppress you to a large degree. Otherwise, you might as well use OTC products like DAA which will bring you to the upper range of natural test levels if you want a slight boost in performance.

Simply put, your cycle is not worth your time. There are other alternatives which will give you the same results which do not require you to suppress or shutdown your natural test production and having to PCT.[/quote]

thank you for the very informative response which i was looking for and made true sense. i just want you to confirm the foll;

  1. shutdown occurs to duration rather than qtties. but same applies for recovery? i guess 300 test / week won’t need the same amount of time and pct for recovery as 1000 / week

  2. yes hcg will shut me down due to the negative loop but wont it aid in recovery due to (mimicking lh) during the cycle? it would also serve its purpose to recover my suppressed tests from suppressing substances. thats the reason why i keep bringing up hcg in case i want to subs test
    [/quote]

dose does not have a direct relationship with HPTA suppression… however, time on does appear to have that effect.

there are tons of studies that show 50% suppression in 1-2 weeks on mild doses (20 mg/day) of stuff like anavar and winstrol.

if you add in any androgen (test, deca, primo, etc), then your body will produce less testosterone in order to maintain homeostasis. if you’re gonna be suppressed, then the key is to take enough of an androgen to make worthwhile gains…
[/quote]

Perfect

one more thing

why do many users claim that gains from larger doses of primo although are slower, tend to stay longer than test or other aas. do you agree?[/quote]

less water retention on cycle, most likely. lots of guys mistake that for gains on cycle…

to be honest, i don’t know anybody that uses Primo except for female athletes. it’s just too expensive for most guys i know for such modest gains…[/quote]

except if u live in the middle east / turkey not that pricey

yll b shocked at prices especially in egypt

You do realize a lot of primo is fake. If it’s cheap it’s probably just test.

[quote]nooberific wrote:
You do realize a lot of primo is fake. If it’s cheap it’s probably just test.[/quote]

Like I said Got mine from Turkish local pharmacies where each pharmacy had a max of 2-3 at a time as I blv they r producing less if any. The good thing u find about 3 pharmacies every block. You do realize they are procuded there. That’s one of the reasons it’s probably fake now overseas due to shortage

Test deca and many other aas are produced in Egypt and the dollar is equivalent to abt 8 Egyptian pounds so…

You would have to wait a longer time for PCT as 1g will take a longer time to fall to a level low enough for your HPTA to begin recovery. Hence, you will be shutdown longer.

Answered by cycobushmaster above.

To add:

You need to understand how the HPTA works. All HCG does is maintain testicular function. It is your pituitary that signals your balls to produce testosterone. It is still shut down even if your balls are producing test on HCG. This is why you DO NOT use HCG during PCT.

Lowering estrogen will lead to an increase in testosterone within normal range. If you want minimal gains, you might want to consider this rather than go through all the trouble of a mild cycle.

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]nooberific wrote:
You do realize a lot of primo is fake. If it’s cheap it’s probably just test.[/quote]

Like I said Got mine from Turkish local pharmacies where each pharmacy had a max of 2-3 at a time as I blv they r producing less if any. The good thing u find about 3 pharmacies every block. You do realize they are procuded there. That’s one of the reasons it’s probably fake now overseas due to shortage

Test deca and many other aas are produced in Egypt and the dollar is equivalent to abt 8 Egyptian pounds so… [/quote]

Yes this is true. I get my stuff from Asian pharmaceutical companies and they’re considerably cheap as well.

[quote]dt79 wrote:

You would have to wait a longer time for PCT as 1g will take a longer time to fall to a level low enough for your HPTA to begin recovery. Hence, you will be shutdown longer.

Answered by cycobushmaster above.

To add:

You need to understand how the HPTA works. All HCG does is maintain testicular function. It is your pituitary that signals your balls to produce testosterone. It is still shut down even if your balls are producing test on HCG. This is why you DO NOT use HCG during PCT.

Lowering estrogen will lead to an increase in testosterone within normal range. If you want minimal gains, you might want to consider this rather than go through all the trouble of a mild cycle.[/quote]

  1. agree
  2. agree - but your not against using hcg during the cycle not during pct (to keep test during cycle and to facilitate pct recovery from shutdown) plus better have lh stimulated rather than complete shutdown from test alone
  3. i completely disagree

aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of gh and igf1. Estrogen also aids in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. im not saying that we should not use them during high dosed cycles as due to the common sides of water retention and gyno. However only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects especially if u want to bulk

the reason why i highly prefer primo over test is that it is much less androgenic. In addition that i have already bought the primo i will use all yr advise order not to waste this forum and your valuable input that ill be shut down anyways, so ill just raise the primo dose to the min recommended which is 400 pw for 6 weeks

now ill run test prop along for 6 week as well as ill b shut down anyways and order to benefit from the cycle but would still like to avoid the androgenic effect as much as possible. So what would you recommend for the min dosage of test prop stacked with the primo (i know all said 500 but that was suggested alone not considering stacking with primo)

what do you think of

week 1-6
400 pw primo
500 pw hcg (if it would make a diff for stim test via lh and to aid in pct otherwise if it doesnt work this way then sub with 300 test only if hcg doesnt work like i said)
30-40 ed var
25 eod Aromasin

pct

week 9-12
20 ed nolva
week 13-14
10 ed nolva

how would that look for a mild first real cycle

[quote]1. agree
2. agree - but your not against using hcg during the cycle not during pct (to keep test during cycle and to facilitate pct recovery from shutdown)[/quote]

Definitely use it if you have it.

[quote]3. i completely disagree

aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of gh and igf1. Estrogen also aids in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. [/quote]

I am aware of this.

Nobody is telling you to bring down your estrogen to zero or excessively low levels. That would be ridiculous.

Adex does not have the ability to lower it to such amounts in the first place.

In any cycle, not just high dosed ones, and not only when visible side effects start to manifest, estrogen control is very much required. Apart from side effects other than gyno and water retention(which you can google), you need to understand this:

An individual’s rate of aromatization, susceptibility to side effects and the overall ability to maintain a stable hormonal balance are GENETIC.

If you are one of the unlucky fellas who, for example, gets severe acne from abrupt hormonal fluctuations/imbalances, you could end up like this guy:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/please_help_i_lost_all_my_gains

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
the reason why i highly prefer primo over test is that it is much less androgenic. In addition that i have already bought the primo i will use all yr advise order not to waste this forum and your valuable input that ill be shut down anyways, so ill just raise the primo dose to the min recommended which is 400 pw for 6 weeks

now ill run test prop along for 6 week as well as ill b shut down anyways and order to benefit from the cycle but would still like to avoid the androgenic effect as much as possible. So what would you recommend for the min dosage of test prop stacked with the primo (i know all said 500 but that was suggested alone not considering stacking with primo)

what do you think of

week 1-6
400 pw primo
500 pw hcg (if it would make a diff for stim test via lh and to aid in pct otherwise if it doesnt work this way then sub with 300 test only if hcg doesnt work like i said)
30-40 ed var
25 eod Aromasin

pct

week 9-12
20 ed nolva
week 13-14
10 ed nolva

how would that look for a mild first real cycle[/quote]

What is your primo’s ester? If it’s a long ester you should be running it for 10-12 weeks.

Again, HCG will only raise your test levels to the high normal range, which is about equal to 100mg of test E or 80mg of test prop.

We’ve given you advice and what we think you should do.

You seem to be hell bent on running primo and HCG… so if that’s what you think is best go ahead.

Now… In my opinion running low dose primo and lose dose anavar is a complete waste of time and money. Throw in 500mg of test and 75-100mg of anavar and you will be much happier.

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

You would have to wait a longer time for PCT as 1g will take a longer time to fall to a level low enough for your HPTA to begin recovery. Hence, you will be shutdown longer.

Answered by cycobushmaster above.

To add:

You need to understand how the HPTA works. All HCG does is maintain testicular function. It is your pituitary that signals your balls to produce testosterone. It is still shut down even if your balls are producing test on HCG. This is why you DO NOT use HCG during PCT.

Lowering estrogen will lead to an increase in testosterone within normal range. If you want minimal gains, you might want to consider this rather than go through all the trouble of a mild cycle.[/quote]

  1. agree
  2. agree - but your not against using hcg during the cycle not during pct (to keep test during cycle and to facilitate pct recovery from shutdown) plus better have lh stimulated rather than complete shutdown from test alone
  3. i completely disagree

aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of gh and igf1. Estrogen also aids in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. im not saying that we should not use them during high dosed cycles as due to the common sides of water retention and gyno. However only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects especially if u want to bulk
[/quote]

gyno and water retention aren’t the only side effects of high estrogen.

anyway, i’m not saying to nuke estrogen down to 0, but managing it on cycle is gonna make one much more successful due to the reasons i’ve explained previously…

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
the reason why i highly prefer primo over test is that it is much less androgenic. In addition that i have already bought the primo i will use all yr advise order not to waste this forum and your valuable input that ill be shut down anyways, so ill just raise the primo dose to the min recommended which is 400 pw for 6 weeks

now ill run test prop along for 6 week as well as ill b shut down anyways and order to benefit from the cycle but would still like to avoid the androgenic effect as much as possible. So what would you recommend for the min dosage of test prop stacked with the primo (i know all said 500 but that was suggested alone not considering stacking with primo)

what do you think of

week 1-6
400 pw primo
500 pw hcg (if it would make a diff for stim test via lh and to aid in pct otherwise if it doesnt work this way then sub with 300 test only if hcg doesnt work like i said)
30-40 ed var
25 eod Aromasin

pct

week 9-12
20 ed nolva
week 13-14
10 ed nolva

how would that look for a mild first real cycle[/quote]

What is your primo’s ester? If it’s a long ester you should be running it for 10-12 weeks.

Again, HCG will only raise your test levels to the high normal range, which is about equal to 100mg of test E or 80mg of test prop.[/quote]

Depot / Enanthate

3 questions

  1. 80p-100e isnt that enough to counter the mild suppression of the primo? if not how much of min test should i use in yr opinion to work along abt 400 primo (only need min test to avoid primo’s suppression yet suffer least androgenic effects)

  2. if i stack test with hcg ive read that for ex 400 test + hcg (equivalent to 100 test) totals to 500 test. does it work that way?

  3. Proviron? I know proviron will not replace an AI but it does have other benefits like freeing up test and increase in libido etc. would you recommend id use it with the primo instead of the test at 25 ed? (i know ai would be needed with proviron but worth to be added when going for 25-50 prov ed?)

meanwhile might be useful to share

Androgenic to Anabolic Ratios

Compound: Androgenic Anabolic
Testosterone 100 200
Anabolicum Vister(Quinbolone)(oral Boldenone) 50 100
Anadrol 50(Oxymetholone) 45 320
Anadur(Nandrolone Hexyloxyphenylpropionate) 37 125
Anatrofin(Stenbolone Acetate) 107-144 267-332
Anavar(Oxandrolone) 24 322-630
Andractim(Dihydrotestosteron) 30-260 60-220
Andriol(Testosterone Undecanoate) 100 100
Androderm(Testosterone) 100 100
Androgel(Testosterone) 100 100
Boldabol(Boldenone Acetate) 50 100
Cheque Drops(Mibolerone) 1,800 4,100
Danocrine(Danazol) 37 125
Deca-Durabolin(Nandrolone Decanoate) 37 125
Deposterona(Testosterone Blend) 100 100
Dianabol(Methandrostenolone) 40-60 90-210
Dimethyltrienolone 10,000+ 10,000+
Dinandrol(Nandrolone Blend) 37 125
Durabolin(NPP) 37 125
Dynabol(Nandrolone Cypionate) 37 125
Equipoise(Boldenone Undecylenate) 50 100
Esiclene(Formebolone) No Data Available
Genabol(Norbolethone) 17 350
Halotestin(Fluoxymesterone) 850 1,900
Hydroxytestosterone 25 65
Laurabolin(Nandrolone Laurate) 37 125
Madol(Desoxymethyltestosterone) 187 1,200
Masteron(Drostanolone Propionate) 25-40 62-130
Megagrisevit-Mono(Clostebol Acetate) 25 46
MENT(Methylnortestosterone Acetate) 650 2,300
Mestanolone 78-254 107
Methandriol(Mythelandrostenediol) 30-60 20-60
Methyl-1-Testosterone 100-220 910-1,600
Methyldienolone 200-300 1,000
Methylhydroxynandrolone(MHN) 281 1304
Methyltestosterone 94-130 115-150
Metribolone(Methyltrienolone) 6,000-7,000 12,000-30,000
Miotolan(Furazabol) 73-94 270-330
Myagen(Bolasterone) 300 575
Nilevar(Norethandrolone) 22-55 100-200
Omnadren(Testosterone Blend) 100 100
Orabolin(Ethylestrenol) 20-400 400
Oral Turinabol None 100+
Oranabol(Oxymesterone) 50 330
Orgasteron(Normethandrolone) 325-580 110-125
Parabolan(Tren Hexahydrobenzycarbonate) 500 500
Primobolan(Methenolone Acetate) 44-57 88
Primobolan Depot(Methenolone Enanthate) 44-57 88
Prostanozol n/a n/a
Protabol(Thiomesterone) 61 456
Proviron(Mesterolone) 30-40 100-150
Sanabolicum(Nandrolone Cyclohexylpropionate) 37 125
Steranabol Ritardo(Oxabolone Cypionate) 20-60 50-90
Superdrol(Methyldrostanolone) 400 20
Sustanon 100 & 250 100 100
Synovex(Testosterone Propionate & Estradiol) 100 100
Test 400 100 100
Test Enanthate/Cypionate/Propionate/Susp & Blends 100 100
THG(Tetrahydrogestrinone) No Data Available
Tren Acetate/Enanthate & Blends 500 500
Winstrol(Stanozolol) 30 320

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

You would have to wait a longer time for PCT as 1g will take a longer time to fall to a level low enough for your HPTA to begin recovery. Hence, you will be shutdown longer.

Answered by cycobushmaster above.

To add:

You need to understand how the HPTA works. All HCG does is maintain testicular function. It is your pituitary that signals your balls to produce testosterone. It is still shut down even if your balls are producing test on HCG. This is why you DO NOT use HCG during PCT.

Lowering estrogen will lead to an increase in testosterone within normal range. If you want minimal gains, you might want to consider this rather than go through all the trouble of a mild cycle.[/quote]

  1. agree
  2. agree - but your not against using hcg during the cycle not during pct (to keep test during cycle and to facilitate pct recovery from shutdown) plus better have lh stimulated rather than complete shutdown from test alone
  3. i completely disagree

aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of gh and igf1. Estrogen also aids in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. im not saying that we should not use them during high dosed cycles as due to the common sides of water retention and gyno. However only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects especially if u want to bulk
[/quote]

gyno and water retention aren’t the only side effects of high estrogen.

anyway, i’m not saying to nuke estrogen down to 0, but managing it on cycle is gonna make one much more successful due to the reasons i’ve explained previously…[/quote]

yes i understand this i was commenting on/against the recommendation to run ai solo

Why would you shut yourself down with a replacement dose of test just to run a mild compound when similar results may be obtained WITHOUT gear?

If you run the primo, you will have to run it for 10-12 weeks because of the long ester. You will be shutdown even from 100mg of test OR HCG by then. If you are genetically destined to permanently screw up your HPTA, it will happen with 100mg of test.

So if you are under a false sense of security just because you are running low doses, I assure you that you are very much mistaken. The reason people are encouraged to start with moderate doses or single compounds is because we don’t know how SIDE EFFECTS will affect them, not because of minimal suppression.

At this point, I would strongly advise you not to cycle. Gear is not for everyone. If you are not prepared to assume the risks, do not cycle.

Proviron is useless. Aromasin increases free test as well.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Why would you shut yourself down with a replacement dose of test just to run a mild compound when similar results may be obtained WITHOUT gear?

If you run the primo, you will have to run it for 10-12 weeks because of the long ester. You will be shutdown even from 100mg of test OR HCG by then. If you are genetically destined to permanently screw up your HPTA, it will happen with 100mg of test.

So if you are under a false sense of security just because you are running low doses, I assure you that you are very much mistaken. The reason people are encouraged to start with moderate doses or single compounds is because we don’t know how SIDE EFFECTS will affect them, not because of minimal suppression.

At this point, I would strongly advise you not to cycle. Gear is not for everyone. If you are not prepared to assume the risks, do not cycle.[/quote]

low dosing to avoid shutdown is not my concern especially that ive learned now that if it was inevitable then better benefit from larger doses (which is logic) as you and others suggested. low dosing is suggested only to min the androgenic effects. thats where i’m unanswered

im worried cuz i lacked much info however the more i understand the less worried i am

Genetically permanently screw HPTA? (shouldn’t it be a Temporary screw due to proper pct?)

Bear with me a little more here - In case I go for test - what do you think of tapering to avoid pct where i saw many threads recommending them and how they avoid the bitching of pct

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
Genetically permanently screw HPTA? (shouldn’t it be a Temporary screw due to proper pct?) [/quote]

No. That’s what people are trying to tell you. If you are destined to permanently screw yourself up, it will happen. Although this is very rare, it is a risk that you assume when you decide to do gear. No one can promise you anything.

You are not prepared for it. Do not cycle. This is why I keep telling you to explore natural alternatives for your “5 percent increase in performance”.

If you want to cycle, do a proper one.

There’s a special rung in hell reserved for people who waste good primo.

Too many of the same questions about the same concerns. I wouldn’t cycle if I was you either. You’re just all over the place.