Full-Body Training, Need Some Science/Advice

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

People train certain muscle groups on a day, e.g. Day 1 = Chest, Day 2 = Legs, or Day 1 = Chest + Back etc.

But for a long time, I have trained in a scattered form, hitting the whole body; for example:

Day 1: Bench Press, Bicep Curls, Shoulder Press, some abs stuff, Bent-Over Rows etc.
Day 2: Squats, Tricep Extension, Lateral Raises, Dumbbell Chest Press and so on.

My ‘theory’/idea is that if on, say Day 1, you do Bench Press, followed by Chest Fly, followed by Dumbbell Chest Press or whatever… then in the later sets, you’ll only be working at, say, 60% of your max due to fatigue.

Whereas if you do a non-related muscle group like Biceps directly after Chest - then you can lift at nearly 100%. And on Day 2 you can repeat, doing Dumbbell Chest Press at 100% and some other Biceps exercise at 100%.

So if we compare the targeted muscle groups vs full-body training… Supposing that by the end of the week - you have done exactly all the same exercises (let’s assume all other variables are the same). You would surely have been able to lift more total weight if you did full-body each day, because you would have had a 24-hour rest in between each intense muscle group-specific exercise.

And thus… lifting more weight (assuming same amount of time, nutrition etc.) - would mean more muscle growth. True or False?

I hope I explained that clearly, it makes sense in my head.

2

It all revolves around goals, time, and energy. If you want a bigger squat, bench, and deadlift-- you have to figure how to work those movements hard and be able to recover. This varies from individual and each abilities to recover. If you want just bigger muscles, then perhaps training more towards sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is sufficient, rather than building denser muscle through myofibrillar hypertrophy. The methods for each are different, and will be somewhat different over the course of months/years for an individual.

So, in your first example, of Benching, doing flyes, then DB pressing, one can expect to force a muscle to grow through training it when it is already fatigued in one single session. Fundamentally, this is what you have to do to make yourself bigger and stronger. If correct intensity if used, you can do this over multiple days.

Take the Smolov squat program for example, you maybe only squatting once a day without any other leg movements, but you are squatting 4 days per week-- and you will be squatting heavy weights when you are way under 100% capacity. You are usually training at moments of 40% strength capacity I would be willing to bet. Either way, you have to do this in order to force yourself to grow and get stronger-- training through the bleak moments as I personally call it.

In my personal experience, if you wait till you feel 100% to lift a certain movement or muscle group, you will never get stronger or bigger after the initial gains are made in the beginner’s phase. You have to force the body to train in a somewhat fatigued state for a period of time, being smart to back off and recover at some point of course-- either through deload, super compensation, lowering intensity/volume, changing to a less intense dynamic effort for a short time, etcetera.

Now, as far as what split is ideal. Again, it depends on that person’s goals, the time they have available, and their ability to recover. I will leave that for someone else to add on with. I just thought I would add the work capacity discussion in the mix, as I feel that is a very important component of training.

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[quote]mduckworth wrote:
But for a long time, I have trained in a scattered form, hitting the whole body; for example:

Day 1: Bench Press, Bicep Curls, Shoulder Press, some abs stuff, Bent-Over Rows etc.
Day 2: Squats, Tricep Extension, Lateral Raises, Dumbbell Chest Press and so on.[/quote]
I’d say scattered is a good description. From this quick snapshot of these two days, it looks like you have no idea about how to fundamentally organize a training plan.

[quote]My ‘theory’/idea is that if on, say Day 1, you do Bench Press, followed by Chest Fly, followed by Dumbbell Chest Press or whatever… then in the later sets, you’ll only be working at, say, 60% of your max due to fatigue.

Whereas if you do a non-related muscle group like Biceps directly after Chest - then you can lift at nearly 100%. And on Day 2 you can repeat, doing Dumbbell Chest Press at 100% and some other Biceps exercise at 100%.[/quote]
I think you’re addressing a very basic issue people have with full body training (or upper/lower splits) vs bodypart splits. When you work more muscle groups in the same session, you need to find an effective compromise with the number of exercises per part, the total volume per part, and the intensity used for each.

Yes, if I do four exercises for chest followed by three exercises for triceps, I’ll be moving less weight on the last triceps exercise than if I hadn’t already done those six previous exercises. But the thing we know about training is, there are plenty of ways to skin a cat. It almost a cliche, but both methods can work just fine. Some people find they respond better to one method or another, but both can work if programmed properly.

You lost me here. One of the biggest differences with bodypart splits is that you can, and you basically have to, perform more exercises per part compared to full body or upper/lower splits. So from this perspective, they can’t be the same.

It’s even difficult to have comparable volume per part comparing one method to another. With a bodypart split, you might do in the ballpark of 8-15 total sets per bodypart for the week. To get a comparable volume in a full body workout, you’re either going to be doing a ton of exercises each day (like some of Steve Reeves’ old routines) or you’re going to have to be spot-on with rotating volume and intensity throughout the week so that, while you do hit everything in each workout, some parts are worked harder than others in rotating fashion.

It sounds like you’re presuming that total weight lifted (a.k.a. “going heavy”) is the most influential factor in muscle growth. It isn’t. Volume and frequency are just as important, if not moreso, when it comes to building size.

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I thought that Chad Waterbury brings up some great ideas for structuring full body training…

Perform 4 Workouts per Week
Since most programs have you train a muscle group 2-3 times per week, my definition of High Frequency Training (HFT) is to train 4 or more times per week. With full-body training I?ve found that 4 workouts per week hits the sweet spot.

The key, of course, is recovery. When you train 4 days per week it doesn?t allow you to always have a full day off between each workout. The most effective schedule I?ve used is 2-on, 1-off, 1-on, 1-off, 1-on and 1-off (e.g., Mon/Tue/Thur/Sat).

So that means the first two workouts that are back-to-back must complement each other. Put another way: the first two workouts need to be drastically different from each other to avoid overtraining. You can?t lift heavy both of those days, and trying to lift heavy a day after you performed high reps isn?t good, either. Here?s a sample set/rep combination that?s works well for the first two workouts:

Day 1 (Monday): 5 sets of 5 reps (5×5) for an upper-body pull, push and squat/deadlift/lunge. A chin-up/dip/deadlift circuit fits perfectly here. As a general rule, Day 1 will consist of 6 or fewer reps per set.

Day 2 (Tuesday): 4×12 for a different variation of the upper-body pull, push and squat/deadlift/lunge. Now we must use different movement patterns compared to Day 1, so a good example for Day 2 is: inverted row/shoulder press/reverse lunge. This day I typically have the sets range from 10-15 reps.

Day 3 (Thursday): Now we?re up to the third workout of the week. It?s been 48 hours since the last workout that consisted of higher rep sets with lighter loads. So on this day you can train heavy to create a different stimulus. Anywhere from 5-10 sets of 3-6 reps is ideal. Three examples are 10×3, 8×4 or 6×6. If you?re someone that prefers to stick to a few compound movements, this day can consist of the same exercises as Day 1.

Day 4 (Saturday): On this day I?ll use all sorts of combinations. Many people want this to be their toughest workout of the week since they typically have extra time to train on Saturday and can sleep late and lie around (naps!) on Sunday. Some examples for Day 4: repeat the Day 2 workout but increase the number of circuits (sets), train Olympic lifts, or create an full-body circuit of the sled push/pull-up/dip after completing 6-8 sets of an Olympic lift heavy deadlift/front squat variation that?s different than you did on Day 1.

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OP check out the Big Beyond Belief program

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[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
OP check out the Big Beyond Belief program

x2, I have had good results with BBB.

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Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate your time and help, and I’ll be sure to check out BBB right now.

Chris Colucci, on the bit you got lost at:

“So if we compare the split muscle groups vs full-body training… Supposing that by the end of the week - you have done exactly all the same exercises (let’s assume all other variables are the same).”

Here Chest 1 = some Chest exercise e.g. Bench Press, Chest 2 = some other chest exercise e.g. Chest Flyes etc.

Workout style 1: split muscle groups
Day 1: Chest 1, Chest 2, Chest 3, Chest 4
Day 2: Back 1, Back 2, Back 3, Back 4
Day 3: Legs 1, Legs 2 Legs 3, Legs 4
Day 4: Arms 1, Arms 2, Arms 3, Arms 4

For argument’s sake let’s just pretend this covers all the muscle groups.

My scattered tacky “full-body” training:
Day 1: Chest 1, Back 1, Legs 1, Arms 1
Day 2: Chest 2, Back 2, Legs 2, Arms 2
Day 3: Chest 3, Back 3, Legs 3, Arms 3
Day 4: Chest 4, Back 4, Legs 4, Arms 4

So you can see, that by the end of the week - I have done exactly all the same exercises as I would have with Split Muscle-Group training, but my principle is that because of the 24 hour rest between your chest exercises or leg exercises etc. you’d be lifting more total weight than the Split Muscle-Group training. Whereas in Split Muscle-Group, by the time you get to Chest 4 - you can only do half as many reps and are more affected by fatigue.

And of course - I’m assuming it took the same amount of time to complete everything, took the same length of rest, aimed for the same number of reps etc.

The big question is - is my line of thinking correct (lifting more total weight, with the same amount of time etc.), or is it better to completely tear apart your Muscles until failure and fatigue on Day 1, then repeat for all the other muscle groups on Day 2 etc. ?

8

Although I realise after all your replies that I am indeed wrong and should go for the fatigued route; thanks again!

9

[quote]mduckworth wrote:
So you can see, that by the end of the week - I have done exactly all the same exercises as I would have with Split Muscle-Group training, but my principle is that because of the 24 hour rest between your chest exercises or leg exercises etc. you’d be lifting more total weight than the Split Muscle-Group training. Whereas in Split Muscle-Group, by the time you get to Chest 4 - you can only do half as many reps and are more affected by fatigue.

And of course - I’m assuming it took the same amount of time to complete everything, took the same length of rest, aimed for the same number of reps etc.

The big question is - is my line of thinking correct (lifting more total weight, with the same amount of time etc.), or is it better to completely tear apart your Muscles until failure and fatigue on Day 1, then repeat for all the other muscle groups on Day 2 etc. ?[/quote]

Depends on what you’re trying to do.

Since we’re in hypotheticals here…

I would say that your first approach would be better for hypoertrophy gains, and from strength gains coming from hypertrophy. I’d make sure your focus is on TUT and MMC and not just the reps or weight on the bar. You can also use “intensity techniques” like forced reps, drop sets, burnout sets, etc.

I would say your second approach would be better for strength gains due to neural factors. I’d probably drop the reps (to up the intensity in the %-1RM sense) and make sure all the reps are good reps. Don’t grind anything. I’d still focus on the weight on the bar, but use more when you’re feeling good, less when you’re feeling bad, but still focus on progressing over time.

Eventually you’ll hit a wall, whether that be mentally or physically, and should drop the intensity down for a week or so.

So, not really apples to apples, but that’s how I see it.

There’s kind of an intermediate option also, which may be a better mix of both.

Day 1: Chest 1, Arms 2, Arms 3, Arms 4
Day 2: Back 1, Chest 2, Chest 3, Chest 4
Day 3: Legs 1, Back 2, Back 3, Back 4
Day 4: Arms 1, Legs 2, Legs 3, Legs 4

All of the “1” exercises are focused on strength and progressing over time with good reps. I’d say somewhere in the 3-6 rep range. Or maybe better, 85-95% 1RM range. You should be pretty safe to grind a set on these too. Focus on compound movements.

All of the “2,3,4” exercises are focused on hypertrophy and just killing the muscle with lots of TUT while maintaining good MMC and chasing a pump. Focus on “isolation” movements, or whichever gives you the best connection to the muscle you’re trying to hit. E.g., you can use chinups for arms if that’s what you usually get out of them.

IMHO, the option I proposed is probably closer to what you’re looking for.

But we’re in hypotheticals here, so I take zero responsibility for anything.

10

Actually, revised version, since the arms stuff likely conflicts with the back stuff.

Day 1: Arms 1, Chest 2, Chest 3, Chest 4
Day 2: Back 1, Arms 2, Arms 3, Arms 4
Day 4: Legs 1, Back 2, Back 3, Back 4
Day 3: Chest 1, Legs 2, Legs 3, Legs 4

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[quote]mduckworth wrote:
Although I realise after all your replies that I am indeed wrong and should go for the fatigued route; thanks again![/quote]

Did you look into BBB?
It’s exactly what you are talking about.
So I wouldn’t say you are wrong.

12

[quote]mduckworth wrote:
So you can see, that by the end of the week - I have done exactly all the same exercises as I would have with Split Muscle-Group training, but my principle is that because of the 24 hour rest between your chest exercises or leg exercises etc. you’d be lifting more total weight than the Split Muscle-Group training. Whereas in Split Muscle-Group, by the time you get to Chest 4 - you can only do half as many reps and are more affected by fatigue.

And of course - I’m assuming it took the same amount of time to complete everything, took the same length of rest, aimed for the same number of reps etc.[/quote]
Gotcha, I think. Must’ve had a mild brain fart. But yeah, it’s hard to simply chop up one workout and do it through the week, partly because everything’s connected. When I bench heavy will influence when I should overhead press and/or do tri pressdowns. When I row will influence when I should deadlift.

It’s tricky to talk in these kinds of hypotheticals though because the specific exercises are one of the last things to get determined when designing a program. Training goal, volume, intensity, and frequency are all more important.

I’m not super-familiar with the BBB plan the guys have mentioned (but lots of guys do seem to get results from it). But like Josh said, Waterbury has written a ton about how full body or upper/lower splits, often manipulating the volume and/or rep range from workout to workout. Could be something else to look into.

This is basically the heart of the full body vs bodypart split debate that’s been argued about for years. There is no single answer because there is no single best way.