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Full Body or Lower/Upper?

Weight: 75kg
Height: 182cm

All 8 reps

squat 80kg
deadlift 90kg
bench press 65kg
rows 92.5kg
overhead press 45kg
chin up BW+5kg
pull up BW

I’m currently using lower/upper split

Full body
A = Squat, bench press, rows, chin up
B = Deadlift, overhead press, pull up, dips

Lower/Upper
Lower = Squat, SLDL, 2x standing calf raise, crunches, leg raise
Upper = bench press, rows, overhead press, pull up, bicep curl, skull crusher

which one should I use?

To be completely honest with you,
neither of those routines are setting you up for success.

Type in “Push Pull Legs” into the search box in the top right corner of this website and you will have made great strides in finding a routine that will be tremendously more beneficial for you than what originally stated in your post. Good luck.

I disagree with Claudan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full body plan or an upper/lower plan. I used both for years myself and did great on them. Westside training is in fact an upper/lower body split.

That said full body or upper/lower depends on how many days of the week you plan on training. If you can only do 3 days a week, then full body is the way to go. If you can do 4, you’re best doing upper/lower although you could conceivably make full body work for you. Any more than 4 days a week and full body just won’t work. Your full body plan needs another hamstring exercise in there (isolation) instead of something.

That said your upper/lower split leaves something to be desired. Upper body day is ok, lower body unfortunately sucks something godawful terrible. You only have 2 exercises for legs–calf exercises and abs don’t bloody count. If you’re going to make a lower body day, do something worthwhile with your exercises, like this:

  1. Squat, 2) SLDL, 3) Lunges, 4) GHR or Step up or Pull-through or good mornings. Then do abs afterwards or supersetted with calves after the 1st four exercises.

Hope that helps.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I disagree with Claudan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full body plan or an upper/lower plan. I used both for years myself and did great on them. Westside training is in fact an upper/lower body split.
[/quote]

Obviously there is nothing wrong with upper/lower or any type of split. I was referencing his particular routines.

[quote]Claudan wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I disagree with Claudan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full body plan or an upper/lower plan. I used both for years myself and did great on them. Westside training is in fact an upper/lower body split.
[/quote]

Obviously there is nothing wrong with upper/lower or any type of split. I was referencing his particular routines.
[/quote]

That’s fair, I misunderstood.

If you’re doing a fullbody or even upper / lower, i don’t think you should bother with isolations like curls and tricep extensions. Scrap them and in their place, throw in dips and supinated-grip chin-ups. In my opinion, those 2 exercises are far superior then the curls and extensions, involving more of the rest of the body, and they probably provide just as much stimulation (if not more) for the bi’s and tri’s anyway.

As for the lower body, I agree with aragorn; squat, deadlift / hinge, lunge, and then use another posterior chain dominant exercise like GHRs or good mornings, and then do calves and abs.

I’d go with something like this:

Upper:

  • Bench
  • Rows
  • Overhead Press
  • Pull-Ups
  • Chins and Dips supersetted

Lower:

  • Squats
  • Stiff Leg DLs
  • Lunges
  • GHR (if you don’t have a GHR setup in your gym do good-mornings or pull-throughs)
  • Calf Raises and crunches supersetted

I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.

Your upper/lower split isnt bad, its a tad incomplete but with a bit of rounding out, you could develop a solid base with that. If you’re going to go upper/lower split and the goal is size, i’d up the intensity and volume and throw in a couple more exercises to make sure you’re hitting every muscle group adequately. Its a bitch trying to bring up lagging areas once the rest of you becomes pretty developed, better to start fighting it now than later.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.
[/quote]

???

How is working everything 3 times a week for “conditioning/muscular endurance” only?

[quote]The Anchor wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.
[/quote]

???

How is working everything 3 times a week for “conditioning/muscular endurance” only?[/quote]

Uh oh, do my beliefs not align with your own?

I personally dont believe that all muscle groups can be hit as efficiently with full-body workouts due to not being able to commit the same amount of intensity to each muscle group. Frequency alone is not enough, at least if we’re talking growth. Great for circuits/conditioning, and even pretty decent for just strength training, but for bodybuilding i wouldnt recommend it, even to beginners. Not when theyre are other options.

I do believe that beginner or novice lifters can see great gains even with a 3 times/week full body program, but i think an upper/lower split 4 days a week is a superior starting point.

Feel free to disagree. Im not particularly interested in debate, just giving my .02 to the OP.

[quote]ashua wrote:
All 8 reps

squat 80kg
deadlift 90kg
bench press 65kg
rows 92.5kg
overhead press 45kg
chin up BW+5kg
pull up BW[/quote]
If you’re hitting those weights for 8 reps each and you’re still 165 pounds at 6’ tall, your eating needs serious improvement (presuming your goal is to build muscle). Nutrition is a huge factor that deserves just as much, if not more, attention than your training program.

[quote]Full body
A = Squat, bench press, rows, chin up
B = Deadlift, overhead press, pull up, dips

Lower/Upper
Lower = Squat, SLDL, 2x standing calf raise, crunches, leg raise
Upper = bench press, rows, overhead press, pull up, bicep curl, skull crusher

which one should I use?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use either of those, even without knowing the sets and reps you’d be using. The full body plan is laid out a little weird (no need for pull-up/chin-up on both days). The upper/lower split should be more varied through the week, not just the same two workouts back and forth unless you’re changing the sets and reps each time.

Check out any of these:
Full Body


Upper/Lower


And, yes, direct arm training can absolutely be a part of either type of routine as long as it’s programmed properly.

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

Upper:

  • Bench
  • Rows
  • Overhead Press
  • Pull-Ups
  • Chins and Dips supersetted

[/quote]

If you don’t mind me asking, why? Doing pull-ups and then chins supersetted with dips seems kind of redundant to me.

Also, OP, your numbers are MESSED. Your 8RM for rows is 92.5kg, but only 90kg for your DL and 65kg for your bench. I can almost guarantee that your rows aren’t as strict as they should be. What kind of rows are you doing? If you like BB rows, the Pendlay row variant discourages cheating more than 45 bent over rows. Lately, I have been really growing to like super strict one-arm DB rows and chest supported rows. Meadows rows should be good, too.

[quote]Claudan wrote:
To be completely honest with you,
neither of those routines are setting you up for success.

Type in “Push Pull Legs” into the search box in the top right corner of this website and you will have made great strides in finding a routine that will be tremendously more beneficial for you than what originally stated in your post. Good luck. [/quote]
I have used push pull legs before, i feel my arms don’t have enough recovery for pull after push day. i’m not sure why.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I disagree with Claudan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full body plan or an upper/lower plan. I used both for years myself and did great on them. Westside training is in fact an upper/lower body split.

That said full body or upper/lower depends on how many days of the week you plan on training. If you can only do 3 days a week, then full body is the way to go. If you can do 4, you’re best doing upper/lower although you could conceivably make full body work for you. Any more than 4 days a week and full body just won’t work. Your full body plan needs another hamstring exercise in there (isolation) instead of something.

That said your upper/lower split leaves something to be desired. Upper body day is ok, lower body unfortunately sucks something godawful terrible. You only have 2 exercises for legs–calf exercises and abs don’t bloody count. If you’re going to make a lower body day, do something worthwhile with your exercises, like this:

  1. Squat, 2) SLDL, 3) Lunges, 4) GHR or Step up or Pull-through or good mornings. Then do abs afterwards or supersetted with calves after the 1st four exercises.

Hope that helps.[/quote]
thanks. i will put lunges and i have power cage and olympic barbell only at home.

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
If you’re doing a fullbody or even upper / lower, i don’t think you should bother with isolations like curls and tricep extensions. Scrap them and in their place, throw in dips and supinated-grip chin-ups. In my opinion, those 2 exercises are far superior then the curls and extensions, involving more of the rest of the body, and they probably provide just as much stimulation (if not more) for the bi’s and tri’s anyway.

As for the lower body, I agree with aragorn; squat, deadlift / hinge, lunge, and then use another posterior chain dominant exercise like GHRs or good mornings, and then do calves and abs.

I’d go with something like this:

Upper:

  • Bench
  • Rows
  • Overhead Press
  • Pull-Ups
  • Chins and Dips supersetted

Lower:

  • Squats
  • Stiff Leg DLs
  • Lunges
  • GHR (if you don’t have a GHR setup in your gym do good-mornings or pull-throughs)
  • Calf Raises and crunches supersetted[/quote]
    upper looks abit tiring. 6 compounds… i will try it if it’s ok for me.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]The Anchor wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.
[/quote]

???

How is working everything 3 times a week for “conditioning/muscular endurance” only?[/quote]

Uh oh, do my beliefs not align with your own?

I personally dont believe that all muscle groups can be hit as efficiently with full-body workouts due to not being able to commit the same amount of intensity to each muscle group. Frequency alone is not enough, at least if we’re talking growth. Great for circuits/conditioning, and even pretty decent for just strength training, but for bodybuilding i wouldnt recommend it, even to beginners. Not when theyre are other options.

I do believe that beginner or novice lifters can see great gains even with a 3 times/week full body program, but i think an upper/lower split 4 days a week is a superior starting point.

Feel free to disagree. Im not particularly interested in debate, just giving my .02 to the OP. [/quote]
i also feel lower upper is good for me because of longer rest.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]ashua wrote:
All 8 reps

squat 80kg
deadlift 90kg
bench press 65kg
rows 92.5kg
overhead press 45kg
chin up BW+5kg
pull up BW[/quote]
If you’re hitting those weights for 8 reps each and you’re still 165 pounds at 6’ tall, your eating needs serious improvement (presuming your goal is to build muscle). Nutrition is a huge factor that deserves just as much, if not more, attention than your training program.

[quote]Full body
A = Squat, bench press, rows, chin up
B = Deadlift, overhead press, pull up, dips

Lower/Upper
Lower = Squat, SLDL, 2x standing calf raise, crunches, leg raise
Upper = bench press, rows, overhead press, pull up, bicep curl, skull crusher

which one should I use?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use either of those, even without knowing the sets and reps you’d be using. The full body plan is laid out a little weird (no need for pull-up/chin-up on both days). The upper/lower split should be more varied through the week, not just the same two workouts back and forth unless you’re changing the sets and reps each time.

Check out any of these:
Full Body


Upper/Lower


And, yes, direct arm training can absolutely be a part of either type of routine as long as it’s programmed properly.[/quote]
in lower upper, i can’t use few as i am using home gym - power cage and olympic barbell.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]The Anchor wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.
[/quote]

???

How is working everything 3 times a week for “conditioning/muscular endurance” only?[/quote]

Uh oh, do my beliefs not align with your own?

I personally dont believe that all muscle groups can be hit as efficiently with full-body workouts due to not being able to commit the same amount of intensity to each muscle group. Frequency alone is not enough, at least if we’re talking growth. Great for circuits/conditioning, and even pretty decent for just strength training, but for bodybuilding i wouldnt recommend it, even to beginners. Not when theyre are other options.

I do believe that beginner or novice lifters can see great gains even with a 3 times/week full body program, but i think an upper/lower split 4 days a week is a superior starting point.

Feel free to disagree. Im not particularly interested in debate, just giving my .02 to the OP. [/quote]

So working on the compound movements more often, and working each muscle group more often each week is not ideal for a beginner? You do realize that you can hit the same amount of sets per muscle group doing a full body routine as you can on a 4 day u/p split?

[quote]ashua wrote:

[quote]Claudan wrote:
To be completely honest with you,
neither of those routines are setting you up for success.

Type in “Push Pull Legs” into the search box in the top right corner of this website and you will have made great strides in finding a routine that will be tremendously more beneficial for you than what originally stated in your post. Good luck. [/quote]
I have used push pull legs before, i feel my arms don’t have enough recovery for pull after push day. i’m not sure why.[/quote]

Well you know… that’s why following a plan ‘blindly’ isn’t always the best option.

Push - rest - Pull - rest - Legs - rest - rest. ?
Legs - Pull - rest - Push - rest - rest - etc

But now that I think about it… Your triceps should not be involved in your pulling movements… How are you managing that?

I love PPL as of right now, because it allows me to become an expert on a few particular movements, and in about 3-4 months, I’ll move on to different movements.

Gotta love the gym baby!!!

[quote]The Anchor wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]The Anchor wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
I dont recommend full-body routines for any purpose other than conditioning/muscular endurance.
[/quote]

???

How is working everything 3 times a week for “conditioning/muscular endurance” only?[/quote]

Uh oh, do my beliefs not align with your own?

I personally dont believe that all muscle groups can be hit as efficiently with full-body workouts due to not being able to commit the same amount of intensity to each muscle group. Frequency alone is not enough, at least if we’re talking growth. Great for circuits/conditioning, and even pretty decent for just strength training, but for bodybuilding i wouldnt recommend it, even to beginners. Not when theyre are other options.

I do believe that beginner or novice lifters can see great gains even with a 3 times/week full body program, but i think an upper/lower split 4 days a week is a superior starting point.

Feel free to disagree. Im not particularly interested in debate, just giving my .02 to the OP. [/quote]

So working on the compound movements more often, and working each muscle group more often each week is not ideal for a beginner? You do realize that you can hit the same amount of sets per muscle group doing a full body routine as you can on a 4 day u/p split?[/quote]

I didnt say it wouldnt work, in fact i said the opposite. What i said was that i felt an upper/lower 4 day/week split was more ideal. Of course if its structured poorly, any training program can be garbage.

If OP were doing 18 sets per muscle group per week (just using an arbitrary number here) i do not believe it would be as effective to break that down to 3 sessions of 6 vs 3 sessions of 9 sets. High intensity with higher volume is more effective for most people in my opinion and you simply cant lift with the same intensity on a full body program without lowering the volume per muscle group, per workout.

Theres also no reason to tell a beginner that he shouldnt do any isolation work, i think an upper/lower split offers the opportunity for more balance between compound and iso movements as well. Benching is not gonna get you big triceps, beginner gains or not, some skull crushers wont hurt.

That being said, i respect your right to disagree.

[quote]ashua wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
If you’re doing a fullbody or even upper / lower, i don’t think you should bother with isolations like curls and tricep extensions. Scrap them and in their place, throw in dips and supinated-grip chin-ups. In my opinion, those 2 exercises are far superior then the curls and extensions, involving more of the rest of the body, and they probably provide just as much stimulation (if not more) for the bi’s and tri’s anyway.

As for the lower body, I agree with aragorn; squat, deadlift / hinge, lunge, and then use another posterior chain dominant exercise like GHRs or good mornings, and then do calves and abs.

I’d go with something like this:

Upper:

  • Bench
  • Rows
  • Overhead Press
  • Pull-Ups
  • Chins and Dips supersetted

Lower:

  • Squats
  • Stiff Leg DLs
  • Lunges
  • GHR (if you don’t have a GHR setup in your gym do good-mornings or pull-throughs)
  • Calf Raises and crunches supersetted[/quote]
    upper looks abit tiring. 6 compounds… i will try it if it’s ok for me.[/quote]

I just tried it. For chinup, i hit 7-5-5 using BW when i can do 9-8-6 using BW+5kg last time.

I think of removing rows so that i can do max chinup.

What you think?