Fruit Post-Workout

Diet and Nutrition
21

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Phill wrote:

True I agree but cant understand why they need to stress over something like a Surge type beverage just drink the damn thing. Its food with a purpose that it plain and simple.

I’m not stressed in the least. I don’t buy that particular product and would consider that the last thing I would ever need to worry about in terms of how I eat. I think it is great you believe in it. I hope you get even better results from taking it. I do not, however, consider it necessary or believe my progress is stunted by not worrying about it.

The issue here is the fact that any guy…anyone in a weight room unless they are getting ready for a competition and has dialed things in that tight…would have it in their head at all that eating some fruit and getting some protein down after a workout is a bad thing. That is the problem.

Did I not tell you this is exactly what would happen in this thread!!!

Everyone on this site is only after OPTIMUM. Heaven forbid you can’t be OPTIMUM. Timings of meals and quantities of calories and macro breakdown and …garbage. I just can’t bellieve how the responses here are tied into some one size fits all–this is the best and only way to get any size or recover properly.

Now we are afraid of fruit! It has sugar–OH MY GOSH[/quote]

When ever I hear the fruit = sugar = fat I reply did you ever see a fat weak guerilla? Bananas are one of the highest in terms of fructose and carbs…just my 2 cents

22

[quote]Phill wrote:
Why lie to him?? Why not tell the truth he asked the question.

Why ask question then if all we are to do is tell people yes its perfect even if it isnt just so we dont hurt there little fragile feeling.[/quote]

Here was what he asked: “Is this the right type and enough carbs?”

Are you saying the answer to that question is, “No”?

Anyhow, the idea that someone on the Internet can diagnose for someone else what is “optimal” is laughable. Maybe the fruit is just what his body needs. Maybe it is optimal for him.

You have no clue that it’s not. You’re just giving this cookie-cutter advice: “Whey hydrolysate with glucose is optimal.” For some, yes. For others, perhaps not.

23

The problem with most of the arguments in this thread, including my own, are that we assume the poster is asking what is the best possible thing we think they should do, instead of just “will this work?” I know that not everyone is interested in a cadillac diet, some are ok with a Kia. (And the analogy itself proves another point, that a caddie isn’t necessarily better than a Kia to most people, it’s a perception)

To X’s point above- that when the control fails and doesn’t equal the effort, it’s not in our nature as humans to look for a simple solution to a complex problem. It’s in our nature to believe the solution must be complex, otherwise we would have already figured it out. I guess most people don’t want to think they are stupid.

Back on-topic… I agree with CL that there is no way we can know what is best for everyone, but it has been shown that the ingredients in Surge are better for recovery than other protein/sugar concoctions. So the cookie-cutter answer of Surge is probably the appropriate one, most of the time. This guy specifically asked if what he was doing was ok, and I think for the most part everyone has said it is, but Surge is better. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. There are times when being cookie-cutter is ok, especially given the fact that the results between all of the possible solutions are so similar.

holy shit- did T-Nation add a spell-checker?

24

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
The problem with most of the arguments in this thread, including my own, are that we assume the poster is asking what is the best possible thing we think they should do, instead of just “will this work?” I know that not everyone is interested in a cadillac diet, some are ok with a Kia. (And the analogy itself proves another point, that a caddie isn’t necessarily better than a Kia to most people, it’s a perception)

To X’s point above- that when the control fails and doesn’t equal the effort, it’s not in our nature as humans to look for a simple solution to a complex problem. It’s in our nature to believe the solution must be complex, otherwise we would have already figured it out. I guess most people don’t want to think they are stupid.

Back on-topic… I agree with CL that there is no way we can know what is best for everyone, but it has been shown that the ingredients in Surge are better for recovery than other protein/sugar concoctions. So the cookie-cutter answer of Surge is probably the appropriate one, most of the time. This guy specifically asked if what he was doing was ok, and I think for the most part everyone has said it is, but Surge is better. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. There are times when being cookie-cutter is ok, especially given the fact that the results between all of the possible solutions are so similar.

holy shit- did T-Nation add a spell-checker?[/quote]

In fact you are not correct. What several are trying to say is Surge or any other concoction is not ALWAYS the better choice. If all the results would be similar, then how in the next breath can you say Surge would be the cadillac, but what he’s doing is the KIA?

You can’t difinitively say that Surge is better than a freakin turkey sandwhich.

25

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
You can’t difinitively say that Surge is better than a freakin turkey sandwhich.[/quote]

Actually I can. The only possible way it would even be close is if you had really crappy white bread and enough of it to give you twice as many carbs as the turkey gives in protein. Which would be 4 slices of bread to about 4oz of turkey. Not a very appealing sandwich. JB has already shown the science behind the recipe/percentages for Surge. Can you find the same data presented for a turkey sandwich?

I’m not saying you still can’t have good recovery with a Turkey sandwich, hell you could probably drink a damn Slim-Fast shake and be fine, but don’t even try and say a Turkey sandwich is [i]better[/i] than Surge. That’s just stupid.

As for the analogy- I wasn’t calling Surge the Cadillac, that analogy was in reference to a simple vs. complex diet plan as previously discussed.

26

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

You have no clue that it’s not. You’re just giving this cookie-cutter advice: “Whey hydrolysate with glucose is optimal.” For some, yes. For others, perhaps not.[/quote]

well damn right I am im giving my opinion as I am intitled too Thats what this is about its what life is about, we speak and recomend and help through our experience. That all we can do. We take what weve done what has and hasnt worked for us and use that to help answer questions.

27

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
You can’t difinitively say that Surge is better than a freakin turkey sandwhich.

Actually I can. The only possible way it would even be close is if you had really crappy white bread and enough of it to give you twice as many carbs as the turkey gives in protein. Which would be 4 slices of bread to about 4oz of turkey. Not a very appealing sandwich. JB has already shown the science behind the recipe/percentages for Surge. Can you find the same data presented for a turkey sandwich?

I’m not saying you still can’t have good recovery with a Turkey sandwich, hell you could probably drink a damn Slim-Fast shake and be fine, but don’t even try and say a Turkey sandwich is [i]better[/i] than Surge. That’s just stupid.

As for the analogy- I wasn’t calling Surge the Cadillac, that analogy was in reference to a simple vs. complex diet plan as previously discussed.[/quote]

It’s not stupid at all. You are basing every bit of your info on one author and this site promoting its product. And once again, using your words, if the results would be similar, then what makes Surge heads above. And just to keep the facts straight, I never claimed my sandwhich was superior, I said it would do you fine. You are the one glorifying a particular product or routine.

I’ll make you a bet, we’ll take similar people and put them on similar routines. You supplement with Surge and I’ll give mine choc. milk and a turkey sandwhich and we’ll look for noticeable result differences.

Surge is convenient, not some miracle in a can.

28

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

Here was what he asked: “Is this the right type and enough carbs?”

Are you saying the answer to that question is, “No”?
[/quote]

Yes Im saying its no. Largely. IMO once again This is comprised largely of fructose which I have no problem with again Fruit = good ppl should eat more of it. Buit if looking for something optimal Post w/o again IMO and those of many studies as of late this isnt the best choice so yes I gave that opinion.

If you or any one doesnt like that opinion well hell fine your intitled Good differeing opinions help state yours.

Phill

29

[quote]sasquatch wrote:

Surge is convenient, not some miracle in a can.[/quote]

Well said. I am simply looking for the literally amazing results that no one else can come close to all because of Surge. I mean, is my recovery going to increase to such a degree from this product alone that everything else I have done in the past pales in comparison?

If you want to take the product, fine. I hope it does you well. However, don’t imply that everyone else who isn’t taking it is somehow not working or eating optimally and will see less results. It implies that you are passing everyone else up in terms of your results…and I am just not seeing that on this site.

30

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
You are basing every bit of your info on one author and this site promoting its product.[/quote]

Well yes… I am basing my info on Surge on this site and the one author (who happened to invent it) because it’s the only place that talks about Surge. Duh. There is also a small chance I’m basing my opinion on actually using the product vs. not using it and noticing an increased rate of recovery. Hmmm…

I didn’t say heads above, I said better. Don’t over-exaggerate something just to try and make your point sound better. It just makes you sound childish.

Which I agreed with.

Oh now you’re adding choc. milk to your sandwich. Why would that be? I thought you would be just fine with only a turkey sandwich?

Agreed. I never said it was a miracle. If you’ve actually used the product and seen little to no appreciable results- then I can see what you are basing your opinion on. But from the sounds of it you have never even used it- so why are you commenting?

This same theory can be applied to all of the supplements on this site. We never criticize anyone who says a NOX product sucks, yet when someone says one of the products sold here actually works and might just be a better option than what they are doing- we get people bent out of shape. Why do you think that is?

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Well said. I am simply looking for the literally amazing results that no one else can come close to all because of Surge. I mean, is my recovery going to increase to such a degree from this product alone that everything else I have done in the past pales in comparison?

If you want to take the product, fine. I hope it does you well. However, don’t imply that everyone else who isn’t taking it is somehow not working or eating optimally and will see less results. It implies that you are passing everyone else up in terms of your results…and I am just not seeing that on this site.[/quote]

I don’t want to specifically defend Surge anymore- as I don’t know any more about it than what the Surge thread says and my results from it. Which are positive. If I’d had negative or no results from it, I wouldn’t be saying it’s good.

As for products in general- if it is something we’ve used and had good results then it’s fair to say it’s a good product. If the results we’ve seen are better with the product than without it, then it’s fair to say that too even if that implies that one will not get as good as results without it.

You also cannot base the success of a product on any one group of people given the variables involved. If that were the case, and we used this site as an example- then nothing we are doing is working all that well, including protein, creatine, BCAA’s, hell even fish oil. Actually…

32

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
You are basing every bit of your info on one author and this site promoting its product.

Well yes… I am basing my info on Surge on this site and the one author (who happened to invent it) because it’s the only place that talks about Surge. Duh. There is also a small chance I’m basing my opinion on actually using the product vs. not using it and noticing an increased rate of recovery. Hmmm…

And once again, using your words, if the results would be similar, then what makes Surge heads above.

I didn’t say heads above, I said better. Don’t over-exaggerate something just to try and make your point sound better. It just makes you sound childish.

I never claimed my sandwhich was superior, I said it would do you fine.

Which I agreed with.

I’ll make you a bet, we’ll take similar people and put them on similar routines. You supplement with Surge and I’ll give mine choc. milk and a turkey sandwhich and we’ll look for noticeable result differences.

Oh now you’re adding choc. milk to your sandwich. Why would that be? I thought you would be just fine with only a turkey sandwich?

Surge is convenient, not some miracle in a can.

Agreed. I never said it was a miracle. If you’ve actually used the product and seen little to no appreciable results- then I can see what you are basing your opinion on. But from the sounds of it you have never even used it- so why are you commenting?

This same theory can be applied to all of the supplements on this site. We never criticize anyone who says a NOX product sucks, yet when someone says one of the products sold here actually works and might just be a better option than what they are doing- we get people bent out of shape. Why do you think that is?[/quote]

ok–I’ll take away the choc milk. I’ll still make the bet.

And my ‘commenting’ has not been to denegrate Surge as much as yours seems to glorify it. Simply, and feel free to go back and check, I said many things including a turkey sandwhich will yield similar results. And I stand by that.

Your last comment is so ass backwards that it boggles me. Nobody bashes NOX? WTF planet are you on. And when a product from here works people get bent out of shape? Again WTF. This is this thread and the responses there of.
All people do on here is site whore. And that’s not all bad. I order here. You can check.

33

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Your last comment is so ass backwards that it boggles me. Nobody bashes NOX? WTF planet are you on. And when a product from here works people get bent out of shape? Again WTF. This is this thread and the responses there of.
All people do on here is site whore. And that’s not all bad. I order here. You can check. [/quote]

Reread what I wrote. There is nothing assbackwards about it. I didn’t say nobody bashes NOX products- I said we don’t bash the people who do bash it. And I stand by my statement that people get bent out of shape anytime someone suggests they use a Biotest product.

Some examples:

Person X: Should I use Creatine and Grow! Whey?

Person Y: Well umm make sure you get plenty of solid food first.

and

Person X: Is HRX any good?

Person Y: Not wihtou a solid diet plan.

and

Person X: I want to gain some lean mass, is Carbolin 19 or Methoxy-7 better?

Person Y: What the hell dude you only weigh 170lbs. You need to eat 10,000 calories a day and worry about supplements when you’re 65.

Yes I’m exaggerating some, but seriously this is what this site is turning into. People come here looking for advice in diet and training and when the best time is to use the supplements sold here and they are constantly bombarded with messages not to use them. It blows my mind. Am I whoring for Biotest? Sure why the fuck not? Why not try and help a company that I’ve come to respect stay in business so that hopefully they’ll be around for a long time.

34

Well Eric, It looks like you really started a shit storm. Hopefully, the simple answer to your question is contained somewhere in these posts. However, as a contrast to your PWO drink, here is the PWO I make.
12oz skim milk,
2 scoops protein,
1 tbs flax seed oil,
3/4 cup oatmeal,
3/4 cup of honey nut Cherrios
and a bananna.
I throw it all in the blender and BAM I’m good to go. I also have a regular meal within 1 hour of my PWO drink.

So to quote the immortal words of Sly and the Family Stone “Different Strokes for Different Folks”

35

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Your last comment is so ass backwards that it boggles me. Nobody bashes NOX? WTF planet are you on. And when a product from here works people get bent out of shape? Again WTF. This is this thread and the responses there of.
All people do on here is site whore. And that’s not all bad. I order here. You can check.

Reread what I wrote. There is nothing assbackwards about it. I didn’t say nobody bashes NOX products- I said we don’t bash the people who do bash it. And I stand by my statement that people get bent out of shape anytime someone suggests they use a Biotest product.

Some examples:

Person X: Should I use Creatine and Grow! Whey?

Person Y: Well umm make sure you get plenty of solid food first.

and

Person X: Is HRX any good?

Person Y: Not wihtou a solid diet plan.

and

Person X: I want to gain some lean mass, is Carbolin 19 or Methoxy-7 better?

Person Y: What the hell dude you only weigh 170lbs. You need to eat 10,000 calories a day and worry about supplements when you’re 65.

Yes I’m exaggerating some, but seriously this is what this site is turning into. People come here looking for advice in diet and training and when the best time is to use the supplements sold here and they are constantly bombarded with messages not to use them.

It blows my mind. Am I whoring for Biotest? Sure why the fuck not? Why not try and help a company that I’ve come to respect stay in business so that hopefully they’ll be around for a long time.[/quote]

That’s crap. Given the proper time to use them, I’ve never seen such a response. If Rainjack was cutting weight/fat HOT-ROX would be a great supplement.

If a 17 yr old 170 pounder said he was looking for mass Carb. 19 IS NOT the best answer. May it help him? Sure–IF his diet and training are in order. And that is the correct way to answer the question.

I have no issues when giving out supp advice to use those provided here first. I buy products here to support the site as well, but not soley for that reason. I tried MD and liked it so I buy it.

Your admission to whoring makes the rest of your posting much less credible.

36

Hey Eric!

Sounds like a healthy and nourishing pwo shake.

Does the yogurt contain sugar? Are you bulking or cutting or what?

A lot of people prefer dextrose to fructose pwo, because it doesn’t need to be converted by your liver into glucose before reaching muscles. I’ve also heard arguments that complex carbs (like oatmeal) are superior to fructose for body comp (though this isn’t so much for pwo as just in general - basically you want to make sure you’re getting some carbs from grains and not just fruits and dairy).

Although berries contain fructose (not considered ‘ideal’ by some), they’re relatively low in fructose compared to most fruits, and they’re high in fiber so your body won’t be getting a jolt of fructose like it would if you drank a soda containing high fructose corn syrup. So although you pwo shake isn’t the bestest every for spiking insulin, it also won’t overload your body with fructose.

And I believe yogurt does spike insulin to some extent (especially if there’s added sugar) so perhaps that would serve you well, though the fiber in the berries might reduce the blood sugar spike.

I hope I’m not overcomplicating matters - Bottom line is that you’re fine and shouldn’t worry needlessly because you’re eating and eating well, so you’re ahead of the game. But if you’re after the pwo insulin spike it’s probably ideal to just drink dextrose or vitargo and whey and that’s it. Then follow that with ‘real food’.

However if you’re trying to lose fat, you’re better off avoiding the high GI carbs pwo (in my opinion), and sticking with your current pwo shake. In fact if that’s the case, I’d suggest making sure the yogurt doesn’t contain sugar. Some might even suggest skipping the pwo shake altogether and just eating your ‘real’ meal, when trying to lose fat (just to reduce cals that much more).

[quote]Eric Cartman wrote:
I have been downing about 2.5 cups of frozen berries (strawberries, blueberries, blackberries and rasberries) with 1 cup of lowfat vanilla yogurt and 60 grams of protien for a postworkout drink.

Is this the right type and enough carbs?[/quote]

37

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
I have no issues when giving out supp advice to use those provided here first. I buy products here to support the site as well, but not soley for that reason. I tried MD and liked it so I buy it.

Your admission to whoring makes the rest of your posting much less credible. [/quote]

That’s just stupid. Really you are starting to come off as just an idiot now. You think my advice is based solely on the fact that I want Biotest to sell more products, and not because I actually use the products? I have never recommended anything I haven’t or do not currently use and have had good luck with. What benefit would it be to me to suggest a product soley because it’s sold here?

38

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
I have no issues when giving out supp advice to use those provided here first. I buy products here to support the site as well, but not soley for that reason. I tried MD and liked it so I buy it.

Your admission to whoring makes the rest of your posting much less credible.

That’s just stupid. Really you are starting to come off as just an idiot now. You think my advice is based solely on the fact that I want Biotest to sell more products, and not because I actually use the products? I have never recommended anything I haven’t or do not currently use and have had good luck with. What benefit would it be to me to suggest a product soley because it’s sold here?[/quote]

Your comprehension skills are as poor as your debate skills. Besides repeated name calling to try and shout your opinion, you completely misread my statement.

I don’t care if you’ve actually used the product or not. First, that is not an indicator as to whether the product will work for someone else. Second, my statement was the advice for supps should not simply be everyones first answer. Sometimes, often times, proper diet and training must first be addressed.

Answer to last question: Because you’ve already admitted to being a whore.

Hey we can argue all day, all it’s doing is relegating you to name calling and me repeating myself. I stand by the fact that this guys PWO is FINE. Would Surge or any other name brand supplement be better–we do not know. My contention is that it would not be significantly(in economic terms) better.

39

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Answer to last question: Because you’ve already admitted to being a whore.
[/quote]

That explains who one is, not what one has to gain.

Eric, like i said earlier, you are probably cool, optimization would be along the lines of replacing the sugar in your yogurt with better carbs, but this is nit picking. if you are interested in moving to the next level, then Surge is an excellent choice.

John Berardi’s second recommendation is just whey and gatorade powder, this way you can tweak the formula. this is quite similar to what you are doing, just different carb source.

40

[quote]ubl0 wrote:
John Berardi’s second recommendation is just whey and gatorade powder, this way you can tweak the formula. this is quite similar to what you are doing, just different carb source.[/quote]

That’s what I take pre- and during workout. Maybe with some added BCAA if I’m rich for a day.
Post-workout, it’s either Surge or choc milk (depending on my wallet’s state), followed by a bunch of real food an hour later.

Seems to be working fine.