T Nation

Frontloading Test Prop for Test E Cycle

I searched and researched. Did not find this covered. Would have pm"d some of the regs who have helped me over the years but then thought maybe it would be good to open post incase anyone else ever thought about this.

I am not new to cycles but am to frontloading.

Going to do a Test E cycle (250mg EOD X 8 weeks) but I also happen to have 9 - 100mg vials of prop lyin around.

So my question is … is it possible to frontload with the Prop and then swtich over to my E … or would the diff half lives cause an issue ?

By looking at the half lives it seems feasable to do this … but wondering of anyone has “realworld” experience with this scenario … or heard of it being done.

Thoughts?

Thanks again so much to those that have helped me during my time here (u know who u are) … it IS appreciated.

GG

Since you don’t have much test prop I’d actually not use it to kickstart the test e cycle but rather save it and finish the cycle with it.

Frontload the test e and run it for the desired amount of time. 8 weeks of test E means you wont start pct until week 11. If you start injecting the prop after week 8 you can keep your levels up for an extra 10 days or so while still not adding any extra weeks of suppression.

That’s just what I would do in this case.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Since you don’t have much test prop I’d actually not use it to kickstart the test e cycle but rather save it and finish the cycle with it.

Frontload the test e and run it for the desired amount of time. 8 weeks of test E means you wont start pct until week 11. If you start injecting the prop after week 8 you can keep your levels up for an extra 10 days or so while still not adding any extra weeks of suppression.

That’s just what I would do in this case. [/quote]

I agree… totally, and i do this myself too.

Bone,

Thanks for the reply. Cut, dry … to the point … exactly what I was lookin for.

When you say I can “keep my levels up for and extra 10 days or so” … I am assuming you are basing that on 1) the amount of prop I have available and 2) pinning it everyday.

JJ … thank you as well for the reply.

If anyone else wants to chime in … Brooks? =) … feel free. I don’t post much so this is a rare chance for me to converse with all of the good people of this board.

Bone,

Thanks for the reply. Cut, dry … to the point … exactly what I was lookin for.

When you say I can “keep my levels up for and extra 10 days or so” … I am assuming you are basing that on 1) the amount of prop I have available and 2) pinning it everyday.

JJ … thank you as well for the reply.

If anyone else wants to chime in … Brooks? =) … feel free. I don’t post much so this is a rare chance for me to converse with all of the good people of this board.

Well I just gave an estimation on how long you can keep the levels at the 500mg/wk point. I didn’t actually do the math. But since the half life of prop is so short you do not have to wait nearly as long to start PCT. And yes, you should inject the prop everyday. You have the 2 weeks between the last enanthate shot and when you’d start PCT. Work out the numbers and use the prop during that time.

And I think you’ll find that J-J’s advice is just as good as Brook’s

Thanks again Bone.

And you’re right … I believe JJ to be very knowledgeable … wouldn’t say otherwise. =)
I just also appreciate Brooks no BS answers thats all.

Bone … do you have a preference to shooting Test E EOD or E3d ? I know some guys who only shoot it once a week … but I prefer to keep my blood levels a lil more in order and believe I see less sides because of it (past experience).

So with the prop I have on hand and an approx window of 14 days before starting PCT (from last E shot) … I could shoot roughly 65mg ED … sounds like a nice way to use up the Prop I have and continue gaining some before PCT.

as a side note … I do not see World1187 post here much anymore … always enjoyed his posts and insight.

J-J … or anyone … feel free to chime in on anything I have asked Bone … I appreciate ALL advice.

Thanks.

GG

[quote]GreenGoblin wrote:
I searched and researched. Did not find this covered. Would have pm"d some of the regs who have helped me over the years but then thought maybe it would be good to open post incase anyone else ever thought about this.

I am not new to cycles but am to frontloading.

Going to do a Test E cycle (250mg EOD X 8 weeks) but I also happen to have 9 - 100mg vials of prop lyin around.

So my question is … is it possible to frontload with the Prop and then swtich over to my E … or would the diff half lives cause an issue ?

By looking at the half lives it seems feasable to do this … but wondering of anyone has “realworld” experience with this scenario … or heard of it being done.

Thoughts?

Thanks again so much to those that have helped me during my time here (u know who u are) … it IS appreciated.

GG

=================================

BONEZ217 wrote:

And I think you’ll find that J-J’s advice is just as good as Brook’s [/quote]

LMAO! That twat? Nah man, he is as thick as fuck…

OP - I closed the Brook account and opened the JJ one… same person, different day - and i will try to be as cutting as possible seeing as you like that ;D

There is little benefit to using Prop to frontload, and it over complicates things.
You also do NOT have enough to finish out the cycle with it and i realyl would just keep it.

Thjere is tons of shit at my place… slin in the fridge, peptides in the freezer and a drawer with more steroids in that i don’t use that most don’t use in a whole cycle!
Point is, save it, it keeps and will be used eventually. Don’t use the shit just because it is there.

So - in order to accurately frontload with the enanthate, inject 1000mg the first day and 250mg EOD thereafter will give you steady levels from day 1.

I would split your 100mg into 4 x 1ml injections of 250mg, done 2 upper and 2 lower body.

JJ

[quote]GreenGoblin wrote:

Bone … do you have a preference to shooting Test E EOD or E3d ? I know some guys who only shoot it once a week … but I prefer to keep my blood levels a lil more in order and believe I see less sides because of it (past experience).[/quote]

I don’t think you DO notice any difference from EOD and E3D. If you meant from 1x/wk then i agree… i get less aggro when i dose regularly.

I inject 2x/wk with esters like Enanthate, and daily with esters like propionate.[quote]

So with the prop I have on hand and an approx window of 14 days before starting PCT (from last E shot) … I could shoot roughly 65mg ED … sounds like a nice way to use up the Prop I have and continue gaining some before PCT.[/quote]

BUT your cycle is 875mg/wk and 65mg a day is just 455mg! That is no good is it?

I did the maths… in order for you to taper up the Prop dose as the Enanthate is dropping you would run out of prop before you actually got past the taper upto the cycle dose.

Use 100mg a day of the prop beginning 3-4 days after the last Enanthate injection. This will work well. Make sure to wait those days though and not begin it the next day.[quote]

as a side note … I do not see World1187 post here much anymore … always enjoyed his posts and insight.[/quote]

World is deployed.

JJ

Wow, just goes to show ya, I don’t hang around enough when I didn’t even know/notice you changed ID’s JJ. Sorry bout that … I would blame it on the job … wife … or kids … or all 3 … but I just honestly hate getting on the fucking computer sometimes. I’m not the type who like to sit around much.

Point made about the Prop … in storage it goes. That wouldn’t make sense to try to use up that little bit that I have after what you said. I also have quite a bit of stuff lying around … was mainly thinking of the frontloading scenario as I am new to it and was curious about what others have experimented with in terms of substances. Thanks again for that recommendation.

And yes … I meant I see a difference between pinning EOD or E3D as opposed to 1x/w.

I am assuming with your experience that you find it more favorable to pin Test E 2x/w as opposed to EOD ? I DO NOT have experience with only pinning twice a week (only ED or EOD) and wonder what you find different or benenficial about the 2x/W scenario. Can I also assume that even though you only pin 2x/W that you STILL shoot as much per week as someone who pins EOD? Or at least close to? I.E … do you pin 250mg 2x/w or more like 500mg 2x/W ?

I also appreciate the advice on frontloading. Can’t wait to compare it to past experiences with other cycles.

Lastly … I had no idea World was deployed and once again proves my first statment of this post. Nonetheless … thanks for letting me know. He has been kind to me on past questions and I always enjoyed his posts. I wish him a safe return home.

GG

Well…

First let me ask you - what do you feel you notice in the EOD-E3D switch?

Me pinning 2x/wk… it is a little off base now you press me! When using 500mg or less i shoot 2x/wk… if i am using a TRT dose i will shoot 40-50mg 2x/wk too.
If i am using my max doses (700+) then i shoot daily - this is because even shooting 3x/wk (say 250mg) i have a much worse drop in mood and increase in aggression than if i shoot less, more.

I have shot 500mg 2x/wk but i found it unbearable very quickly - psychologically… whereas 150mg ED is nowhere near as tough.
Weird huh?

Back to the prop curiosity… due to the ester it not only has a faster clearance rate, but also a faster absorbtion rate too… this is noticeable between a frontloaded enanthate cycle and a frontloaded prop cycle of the same dose etc… i felt it was at least.

This would be a reason you may choose to use prop (or better yet, suspension) but in all honesty it isnt worth going out of your way to do - the difference was a couple of days for myself when i compared the two (not scientifically - just generally).

:wink:

What do I notice? If I pin more regularly (i.e. ED, EOD, E3D) as opposed to once a week … just a more consistent overall feeling. I feel good everyday. The only time I ever pinned once a week, I felt more lethargic … its hard to describe … my body just felt “off”. That make sense at all? If you thougt I meant I feel a difference between EOD and E3D … My apologies … but that isn’t what I meant. =)

I wouldn’t say your experience with shooting ED and 2x/W is weird … I have heard that comment before. I’m sure alot of it is user dependent. I am naturally strong without AAS but certainly enjoy a quicker recovery while on (which is what I probably enjoy the most). ESPECIALLY after heavy ME days !

Commenting on your Prop statement … makes sense. I suppose I was thinking of being able to take advantage of the quick absorption rate but didn’t really look at the long term considering my less than desireable quantity of Prop.

Another question for you …

Recently my source stopped carrying Dex, Letro, and Aromasin. He states they are “too expensive for him to carry.” I am kinda at a loss about this. Not going to argue with him since he has been a great source over the years … but I have never done a cycle without an AI present.

Any experience in this area J-J ? Ever been without an AI during a cycle? I should note I have more nolva and clomid than I know what to do with so my poss nips issues are covered as well as PCT. Was only going to do a Test Cycle this time although I have a ton of Winny on hand that I am considering using. (not because I am cutting or necessarliy for strength but because of it propensity to make Test work better by binding to the SHBG )

Thanks again for taking the time to talk with me J-J.

GG

[quote]GreenGoblin wrote:
What do I notice? If I pin more regularly (i.e. ED, EOD, E3D) as opposed to once a week … just a more consistent overall feeling. I feel good everyday. The only time I ever pinned once a week, I felt more lethargic … its hard to describe … my body just felt “off”. That make sense at all? If you thougt I meant I feel a difference between EOD and E3D … My apologies … but that isn’t what I meant. =)[/quote]

Ahh… yes, i did think that was what you meant actually - no, i totally agree there is a noticeable difference in dosing these drugs more regularly as opposed to weekly or less.[quote]

I wouldn’t say your experience with shooting ED and 2x/W is weird … I have heard that comment before. I’m sure alot of it is user dependent. I am naturally strong without AAS but certainly enjoy a quicker recovery while on (which is what I probably enjoy the most). ESPECIALLY after heavy ME days ![/quote]

Well… I agree totally that it is user dependant - physiologically this is understood, but it is also largely perception.
What i mean by this is actually not perception but expectation, what i expect of myself. I set a standard that is sometimes depressingly high… maybe it is more that even though i can squat 4, i want to squat 6… and when i squat 6… i will want more![quote]

Commenting on your Prop statement … makes sense. I suppose I was thinking of being able to take advantage of the quick absorption rate but didn’t really look at the long term considering my less than desireable quantity of Prop.

Another question for you …

Recently my source stopped carrying Dex, Letro, and Aromasin. He states they are “too expensive for him to carry.” I am kinda at a loss about this. Not going to argue with him since he has been a great source over the years … but I have never done a cycle without an AI present.[/quote]

PM me.[quote]

Any experience in this area J-J ? Ever been without an AI during a cycle? I should note I have more nolva and clomid than I know what to do with so my poss nips issues are covered as well as PCT. Was only going to do a Test Cycle this time although I have a ton of Winny on hand that I am considering using. (not because I am cutting or necessarliy for strength but because of it propensity to make Test work better by binding to the SHBG )[/quote]

I don’t think the SHBG affinity will do jack, but Stanazolol is a very effective oral steroid that is highly anabolic - added to Test you should notice some decent results that will surpass the T alone.

It is a misconception (a common one) that drugs like Winstrol (i’ll come back to that), Masteron and Var need to be cutting drugs… in fact i hate it when people come here saying they are skinny fat and want to do a cut and have stan, var and whatever… the drugs do not maketh the man!
(I actually dont rate winstrol, and i am yet to try my new suppliers Winny, but generally i find it not great at building muscle - i think that is common with that drug as some love it and some hate it - i am in the latter group!)

Basically - the Winny will add more anabolism and little mush else - no estrogen and a relatively lower androgenic component to the highly aromatisable, highly anabolic and highly androgenic Test technically it will compliment it well.

I personally LOVE masteron as a quite ‘clean’ anabolic… only at a dose of 700mg or so though… it gives good muscle gains at that dose.[quote]

Thanks again for taking the time to talk with me J-J.

GG[/quote]

No probs, send me a PM.

[quote]J-J wrote:
GreenGoblin wrote:
What do I notice? If I pin more regularly (i.e. ED, EOD, E3D) as opposed to once a week … just a more consistent overall feeling. I feel good everyday. The only time I ever pinned once a week, I felt more lethargic … its hard to describe … my body just felt “off”. That make sense at all? If you thougt I meant I feel a difference between EOD and E3D … My apologies … but that isn’t what I meant. =)

Ahh… yes, i did think that was what you meant actually - no, i totally agree there is a noticeable difference in dosing these drugs more regularly as opposed to weekly or less.

I wouldn’t say your experience with shooting ED and 2x/W is weird … I have heard that comment before. I’m sure alot of it is user dependent. I am naturally strong without AAS but certainly enjoy a quicker recovery while on (which is what I probably enjoy the most). ESPECIALLY after heavy ME days !

Well… I agree totally that it is user dependant - physiologically this is understood, but it is also largely perception.
What i mean by this is actually not perception but expectation, what i expect of myself. I set a standard that is sometimes depressingly high… maybe it is more that even though i can squat 4, i want to squat 6… and when i squat 6… i will want more!

****Couldn’t agree with you more here. I was a PL’r from the start … dabbled in BB and after a visit to West Side early this year … I am now back to trying to bust my balls everyday and lift the fucking building if I can ! haha Everyone has their lifting methods and I don’t denounce anyone their favorite, but I encourage serious lifters to sample some of Westsides principals and see if its something your tool box would like.

Commenting on your Prop statement … makes sense. I suppose I was thinking of being able to take advantage of the quick absorption rate but didn’t really look at the long term considering my less than desireable quantity of Prop.

Another question for you …

Recently my source stopped carrying Dex, Letro, and Aromasin. He states they are “too expensive for him to carry.” I am kinda at a loss about this. Not going to argue with him since he has been a great source over the years … but I have never done a cycle without an AI present.

PM me.

Any experience in this area J-J ? Ever been without an AI during a cycle? I should note I have more nolva and clomid than I know what to do with so my poss nips issues are covered as well as PCT. Was only going to do a Test Cycle this time although I have a ton of Winny on hand that I am considering using. (not because I am cutting or necessarliy for strength but because of it propensity to make Test work better by binding to the SHBG )

I don’t think the SHBG affinity will do jack, but Stanazolol is a very effective oral steroid that is highly anabolic - added to Test you should notice some decent results that will surpass the T alone.

It is a misconception (a common one) that drugs like Winstrol (i’ll come back to that), Masteron and Var need to be cutting drugs… in fact i hate it when people come here saying they are skinny fat and want to do a cut and have stan, var and whatever… the drugs do not maketh the man!

***Which is why I said I wasn’t cutting. I didn’t want someone to chime in and ask if I was cutting or that it was only a cutting drug. I’m with you on it is not ONLY a cutting drug.

(I actually dont rate winstrol, and i am yet to try my new suppliers Winny, but generally i find it not great at building muscle - i think that is common with that drug as some love it and some hate it - i am in the latter group!)

Basically - the Winny will add more anabolism and little mush else - no estrogen and a relatively lower androgenic component to the highly aromatisable, highly anabolic and highly androgenic Test technically it will compliment it well.

I personally LOVE masteron as a quite ‘clean’ anabolic… only at a dose of 700mg or so though… it gives good muscle gains at that dose.

****So you don’t think by the Winny binding to the SHBG and therefore freeing up more Test that you are actually IMPROVING your Text E’s effectiveness by using Winny ? I almost think I read you mention the relationship of Winny and the SHGB but I may have to re-check that so I will just let that one fade away for now. =) I am sure you will claify my mistake if I made one. lol … I know you mentioned preference I will admit that I fall into the LIKE it catagory. I have always wanted do a Test/Winny/Mast cycle but for no particular reason … havent yet. You “backing” the Masteron (so to speak) only futhers my desire to add it in to a nice “clean” bulk. I AM Pl’ing but also know my numbers fair way better in a lower wt class.

***Just got back from the gym and dl’d 590 for two good sets of 5 (all natural right now). Started at 225 and did about 5 “feel” sets (225,315,405,495,540) focusing on my speed/power off the floor, then moved to the heavier sets. Felt good.
Thanks again for taking the time to talk with me J-J.

GG

No probs, send me a PM.[/quote]

PM forthcoming …

GG

wow … that was a terrile response layout from me. I hope you can pick out what I said JJ.

PM sent also.

GG

[quote]GreenGoblin wrote:

****Couldn’t agree with you more here. I was a PL’r from the start … dabbled in BB and after a visit to West Side early this year … I am now back to trying to bust my balls everyday and lift the fucking building if I can ! haha Everyone has their lifting methods and I don’t denounce anyone their favorite, but I encourage serious lifters to sample some of Westsides principals and see if its something your tool box would like.[/quote]

I am a Bodybuilder pure and simple - of course training in the 1-3 range periodically but generally between 4-15.

But even i use bands for example.[quote]

***Which is why I said I wasn’t cutting. I didn’t want someone to chime in and ask if I was cutting or that it was only a cutting drug. I’m with you on it is not ONLY a cutting drug.[/quote]

Yeah, it wasn’t a hit on you - just a rant on a related subject. I noticed you said that and felt you understood that yourself anyway.[quote]

****So you don’t think by the Winny binding to the SHBG and therefore freeing up more Test that you are actually IMPROVING your Text E’s effectiveness by using Winny ? I almost think I read you mention the relationship of Winny and the SHGB but I may have to re-check that so I will just let that one fade away for now. =)[/quote]

Well firstly the amount of hormone (or drug) bound to proteins is always the same. A percentage.

So the most prevalent binding protein is albulmin - like in eggs! SHBG is much less abundant but of course a massive focus in steroid users…

So… (while i am YET to do as BR suggested and do the math, I have recently covered binding proteins in my studies) adding x amount of Stanazolol a day will displace a very small amount of T indeed… of which much is then bound elsewhere and metabolised and a small percentage is bound to the AR (etc).

Essentially, adding 350mg of Stanazolol a week to a cycle of T does not displace 350mg of T. It is a very very small percentage indeed… less than 10% of this dose will displace T from SHBG - that is 35mg (which then is free to be metabolised or bound elsewhere to other non-receptor proteins again!).

Of course those numbers are fabricated and i am not about to spend the next 2 hours working it out![quote]

I am sure you will claify my mistake if I made one. lol … I know you mentioned preference I will admit that I fall into the LIKE it catagory. I have always wanted do a Test/Winny/Mast cycle but for no particular reason … havent yet. You “backing” the Masteron (so to speak) only futhers my desire to add it in to a nice “clean” bulk. I AM Pl’ing but also know my numbers fair way better in a lower wt class.

***Just got back from the gym and dl’d 590 for two good sets of 5 (all natural right now). Started at 225 and did about 5 “feel” sets (225,315,405,495,540) focusing on my speed/power off the floor, then moved to the heavier sets. Felt good.
Thanks again for taking the time to talk with me J-J.

GG[/quote]

k :wink:

JJ … are you getting my PM’s ?

I have tried about 4 times to PM you but I don’t see them in my SENT box … ?

GG

nope.

I’m not sure what to do here … ask the mods?

First time PM’s haven’t worked for me.

Can u try pm’ing me ?

I could give you my email … ?

GG