T Nation

Front Squat Carryover

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:

I hope there comes a day when you realize that it is silly to say things like this. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you start a thread a few months ago talking about how you wanted to move across the Atlantic and train at Westside because you wanted to train with the best?

What have you ever done in powerlifting?
My guess would be less than Louie Simmons. [/quote]

You know what’s funny… You pretty much just made the point that I was trying to make. THanks for that.

I never said westside was junk. If you look at one of my earlier posts you’ll see that I say conjugated periodization at it’s core is a great system. THe problem is people apply it all wrong.

In my opinion it’s NOT a system for beginners. More advancded guys are the ones who should be using it (eg people who’ve gone done the western periodization route already, say guys like Dave Tate or Louie Simmons maybe).

As for training at westside, who wouldn’t want to do that??? I don’t know if you remember what I also said in an eralier post about most beginners not making significant gains with conjugated periodization, but I think aot of that is down to not having someone experienced to train with who’s see it all before.

That’s why I think it’s every powerlifters dream to train under Louie Simmons. And lets not forget what he always says, “unless you’re training with us in Columbus, You’re NOT training Westside”.

How about next time you actually pay attention to the points I make in my post s before you go attacking me. I’m gonna be honest here, you look pretty silly starting a fight only to agree with the majority of what I’m saying. But I dunno… maybe you just like arguments.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:

Like you, I compete in the AAU and I compete RAW (not even a belt). Why would you want to follow a training template such as the conjugate method taught by the Westside gang when none of Louie’s disciples trains or competes the way that you do? If you want to use multi-ply gear, squat in a monolift, do “banana split” squats to parallel or above as is most cases, start using medical “gear” then switch to that training protocol.

I am still waiting to see any Westside lifters show up at an AAU or USAPL meet and compete fair and square. It’s not going to happen my friend. Do you want to stay in the AAU? If you think by squatting in a mid-range to narrow stance squat setup that you won’t be putting yourself possibly in a position to squat big, then I recommend that you take a look at some of the past greats that have set world records by using this stance (Fred Hatfield, Kirk Kirwoski).

[/quote]

I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you said apart from what you’ve just quoted. I know you probably doin’t mean literally NO-ONE but there a are a few stand outs in the USAPL and IPF who train in a more Westside-y manner. Jack Reape would be one of those.

Again, I agree with what you just said, but unfortunately it’s not always a case of black and white. There’s a few grey areas as well.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
I’m still unclear on why you want to change something that appears to be working for you? If you go down deep on front squats you will work the glutes and hams. There is plenty of assistance work you can do to hit those areas specifically. Why do you feel it’s necessary to now change your stance and go to the Westside method?

[/quote]

Raw Power,

Thanks, Please read my last post. I’m not committing to anything just yet, but the main idea is that I’m not going to drastically change something that has been working for me, I’m just going to play with some of the variables to see what works best for me.

After reading a lot of information, it seemed like Westside was the method that was most successful. Because I am new to the sport, I didn’t realize that it was specifically for equipped competitors.

I’ve gotten a lot of good advice, and it has been very useful. I’m not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I’ll keep you posted, but I am getting a great education. Thanks again.

[quote]Hanley wrote:

I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you said apart from what you’ve just quoted. I know you probably doin’t mean literally NO-ONE but there a are a few stand outs in the USAPL and IPF who train in a more Westside-y manner. Jack Reape would be one of those.

Again, I agree with what you just said, but unfortunately it’s not always a case of black and white. There’s a few grey areas as well.

[/quote]

Hanley,

Yes, you’re right…there are always grey areas. My reference to Westside was that I haven’t seen or heard of any of the lifters from the gym in Columbus who train under Louie enter a powerlifting competition that either wasn’t the WPO, the federation that Louie started (the IPA) or some similar venue that was a mixture of both (Mountaineer Cup).

MODI stated that he was a drug-free, natural powerlifter who competes RAW. This is not the profile of those who train at Westside in Columbus. Lifters that I know that are like MODI and myself that have tried to do the pure Westside template have either been injured or just eventually “gas out” from the volume from trying to do a pure circa-max program as outlined by Louie.

I am also wondering what has happened to some of the Westside lifters who came on the powerflifting scene, hit it big and then disappeared from competition? I’ve read about them in Powerlifting USA, seen Louie standing next to the newest soon-to-be-star and then the next year and then some you never hear about them again. One example would be George Halbert. What happened to him and so many others at Westside that you never hear about anymore? Could it be from possible injuries or other reasons?

I would be able to validate the pure Westside style of training for a drug-free, natural, RAW powerlifting competitor such as MODI or myself or even using single-ply gear for the USAPL if I could see just one of the Columbus, Ohio lifters enter into an AAU or USAPL meet and just qualify to go to nationals or whatever.

I just think that pure Westside is over-rated and Louie isn’t being totally upfront on what is required to stick out his training protocol to the letter.

I don’t see the proof in Louie’s disciples from Westside in Columbus entering other powerlifting meets such as the AAU, USAPL, USPF, WABDL, etc., or just his lifters having a long duration of competitive years. I know I’m going to take a hit for this so let the flaming, gunfire and bashing start. Somebody has to say it.

I think Louie’s got some good ideas ideas about training and incorporating equipment such as the glute-ham raise and the reverse-hyper into those ideas for a desired result. Heck, I even bought one myself and they have helped me in my training, but I didn’t follow a Westside template because of the way I train and compete.

I never got stronger from lifting light weights (60% of 1RM - speed work). I know there are plenty of lifters in the AAU and USAPL that use hybrid systems of the Westside or incorporate some of their ideas into their training, but it’s not pure Westside. As you quoted from Louie, “If you’re not training at Westside, you’re not training Westside.”

I’ve looked at Jack Reape’s training logs a few times for over a year. I’ve read his articles. Jack’s not following a pure Westside template. It’s a mixture of Sheiko and other schools of thought. His volume is relatively low compared to pure Westside. Westside doesn’t take whole back-off weeks after three weeks of training. They also don’t use kettlebells as part of their regular training protocol. Lawn mowing isn’t GPP training at Westside either.

I guess every lifter has to find what works for them. By the way, good job on incorporating front squats into your training program. I hope you continue to get as much out of them as I do. Good luck with your training!

[quote]Modi wrote:

Raw Power,

Thanks, Please read my last post. I’m not committing to anything just yet, but the main idea is that I’m not going to drastically change something that has been working for me, I’m just going to play with some of the variables to see what works best for me.

After reading a lot of information, it seemed like Westside was the method that was most successful. Because I am new to the sport, I didn’t realize that it was specifically for equipped competitors.

I’ve gotten a lot of good advice, and it has been very useful. I’m not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I’ll keep you posted, but I am getting a great education. Thanks again.[/quote]

Oh, you’re welcome…just trying to help. Good luck with your training. I hope to see you at AAU Worlds one day.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
Oh, you’re welcome…just trying to help. Good luck with your training. I hope to see you at AAU Worlds one day.
[/quote]

Absolutely, would love to see you there…the question is are you going to drop the 28lbs or do I have to go up a class!?!

Raw Power,

Thanks for the response, it’s refreshing to see a well thought out and intelligent response and not just an all out attack when you disagree with someone.

You can Chuck V to your list of people who’ve disappeared.

It seems that the majority of the guys who keep logs on EliteFTS are injured in some way or another almost all the time.

Matt k - partially torn tri
Chad Aichs - Torn hammie
Dave Tate - Where do I start…
Jim Wendler - Has moved to more towards reps than maxes recently.

I think Jack Reape’s one of the best examples of how a westside style of training can be adapted to suit your needs. After all one of the main ideas behind it is the adaptability right?

I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but in general, hybrid systems which pick and choose the best parts of all the various dogmas seem the way to go.

I’m somewhat lost about the controversey here.

I’ve never ever heard anyone say that a raw lifter who is using “westside” should train exactly the same as one of the WPO competitors.

I use a lot of full range comp. lifts as well as some olympic squats, occaisonally o-lifts, etc. I also think things like pin presses and DE bench have helped me tremendously.

I’ve taken a 315 bench in october and turned it into a 365 bench in january. I did it natural and raw, and with a program that was very heavily influenced by westside.

Someone can just as easily make no progress and get injured if they put their competition maxes into Sheiko routines when they aren’t experienced enough.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
It seems that the majority of the guys who keep logs on EliteFTS are injured in some way or another almost all the time.

Matt k - partially torn tri
Chad Aichs - Torn hammie
Dave Tate - Where do I start…
Jim Wendler - Has moved to more towards reps than maxes recently.

[/quote]

What do any of those lifters have to do with Westside Barbell? Only 2 of them trained there and haven’t for around 2 years. EliteFTS is entirely separate from Westside.

Besides, all the lifters you mentioned are lifting/ or have lifted competitively for a long time. Taking a guy like Tate who lifted using progressive overload methods for years and competed for like what 20 years and using him as an example of why Westside will get you injured doesn’t make sense. Powerlifters from all gyms pushing themselves to the limit will get injured if they train long enough. It is inevitable.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
Yes, you’re right…there are always grey areas. My reference to Westside was that I haven’t seen or heard of any of the lifters from the gym in Columbus who train under Louie enter a powerlifting competition that either wasn’t the WPO,the federation that Louie started (the IPA) or some similar venue that was a mixture of both (Mountaineer Cup).

Many of the lifters at Westside, including Louie, lifted in the USPF for years. And the Mountaineer Cup isn’t a mixture of IPA and WPO, its USPF.

I would be able to validate the pure Westside style of training for a drug-free, natural, RAW powerlifting competitor such as MODI or myself or even using single-ply gear for the USAPL if I could see just one of the Columbus, Ohio lifters enter into an AAU or USAPL meet and just qualify to go to nationals or whatever.

Why do you need to validate Westside barbell? Why should any of the lifters at Westside lift in an AAU or USAPL meet? Why don’t AAU lifters lift in the APF to show that their training is superior? If you look at the success of the lifters at Westside Barbell and the amount of elite lifters and numbers put up from that gym over the years, they have done pretty damn well for themselves. They don’t care what people on the internet think, only setting records and hitting PRs.

I just think that pure Westside is over-rated and Louie isn’t being totally upfront on what is required to stick out his training protocol to the letter.

Why would he lie? Call him up and ask him any questions you have if you think he is misleading people.

I don’t see the proof in Louie’s disciples from Westside in Columbus entering other powerlifting meets such as the AAU, USAPL, USPF, WABDL, etc., or just his lifters having a long duration of competitive years. I know I’m going to take a hit for this so let the flaming, gunfire and bashing start. Somebody has to say it.

Nick Winters lifts there and benches huge weights w/o a bench shirt. As far as other lifters, maybe they see the WPO as their goal, and don’t care about entering a USAPL meet. Just like many USAPL lifters choose not to lift in the APF. It’s a matter of preference, and they do pretty damn well where they choose to compete.

Westside doesn’t take whole back-off weeks after three weeks of training. They also don’t use kettlebells as part of their regular training protocol. Lawn mowing isn’t GPP training at Westside either.

How do you know any of this? They don’t take days off if they are feeling like shit? They don’t skip an ME move and just hit accessory moves if they’re feeling rundown or are going through a circa-max phase? They don’t incorporate kettlebells?
[/quote]

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Raw Power,

Thanks for the response, it’s refreshing to see a well thought out and intelligent response and not just an all out attack when you disagree with someone.

You can Chuck V to your list of people who’ve disappeared.

It seems that the majority of the guys who keep logs on EliteFTS are injured in some way or another almost all the time.

Matt k - partially torn tri
Chad Aichs - Torn hammie
Dave Tate - Where do I start…
Jim Wendler - Has moved to more towards reps than maxes recently.

I think Jack Reape’s one of the best examples of how a westside style of training can be adapted to suit your needs. After all one of the main ideas behind it is the adaptability right?

I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but in general, hybrid systems which pick and choose the best parts of all the various dogmas seem the way to go.[/quote]

I have no idea what you’re talking about with the Chuck V thing. He won the WPO finals last year at age 40, and I’m pretty sure I’ll see him lift on Saturday to defend his title.

This just in: powerlifters get hurt pretty often.

Do beginners need to use the dynamic method much? No. But conjugated training doesn’t mandate that they do. They would substitute RE for DE work.

Bottom line: conjugated training works, nobody wants to lift in the USAPL and squat 2 inches deep/walk weights out, I don’t even have enough energy to type anymore…I’m going to the Arnold to watch cheaters and liars lift weights

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:

Do beginners need to use the dynamic method much? No. But conjugated training doesn’t mandate that they do. They would substitute RE for DE work.

Bottom line: conjugated training works, nobody wants to lift in the USAPL and squat 2 inches deep/walk weights out, I don’t even have enough energy to type anymore…I’m going to the Arnold to watch cheaters and liars lift weights[/quote]

Nobody wants to lift in it? What planet are you on exactly… plant America obviously. I know you might find this hard to believe but the IPF is a far more popular fed on a world level. And probably one of the most popular in the US too. Lets face it, the WPO is basically an American fed. And one of the reasons it’s so popular is because the Americans dominate it, unlike the IPF.

I never criticised WPO lifters btw. Just because I don’t think Westside is the only way to become a good powerlifter doesn’t mean I don’t follow and support the WPO/WPC.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misquote me. Have fun watching the Arnold. I can’t wait to see the results and videos of the 220 class.

PS; Maybe I was wrong about Chuck V, he just doesn’t seem as publicised as he used to be. I made a mistake.

[quote]vandalay15 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
It seems that the majority of the guys who keep logs on EliteFTS are injured in some way or another almost all the time.

Matt k - partially torn tri
Chad Aichs - Torn hammie
Dave Tate - Where do I start…
Jim Wendler - Has moved to more towards reps than maxes recently.

What do any of those lifters have to do with Westside Barbell? Only 2 of them trained there and haven’t for around 2 years. EliteFTS is entirely separate from Westside.

Besides, all the lifters you mentioned are lifting/ or have lifted competitively for a long time. Taking a guy like Tate who lifted using progressive overload methods for years and competed for like what 20 years and using him as an example of why Westside will get you injured doesn’t make sense. Powerlifters from all gyms pushing themselves to the limit will get injured if they train long enough. It is inevitable. [/quote]

I didn’t say ANY of them trained at Westside. My point was people using the westside style of training are probably more injury prone than others. The key word there is “probably”.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
vandalay15 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
It seems that the majority of the guys who keep logs on EliteFTS are injured in some way or another almost all the time.

Matt k - partially torn tri
Chad Aichs - Torn hammie
Dave Tate - Where do I start…
Jim Wendler - Has moved to more towards reps than maxes recently.

What do any of those lifters have to do with Westside Barbell? Only 2 of them trained there and haven’t for around 2 years. EliteFTS is entirely separate from Westside.

Besides, all the lifters you mentioned are lifting/ or have lifted competitively for a long time. Taking a guy like Tate who lifted using progressive overload methods for years and competed for like what 20 years and using him as an example of why Westside will get you injured doesn’t make sense. Powerlifters from all gyms pushing themselves to the limit will get injured if they train long enough. It is inevitable.

I didn’t say ANY of them trained at Westside. My point was people using the westside style of training are probably more injury prone than others. The key word there is “probably”.[/quote]

You’ve said this repeatedly and yet have NO evidence to back it up.

And to the statement that westside doesn’t work… I’ve been powerlifting for less than a year, and I’m already knocking on the door of an 1750-1800 total. I train following the westside template, and have not touched anabolics.

That’s proof enough for me.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Mr. Bear wrote:

Do beginners need to use the dynamic method much? No. But conjugated training doesn’t mandate that they do. They would substitute RE for DE work.

Bottom line: conjugated training works, nobody wants to lift in the USAPL and squat 2 inches deep/walk weights out, I don’t even have enough energy to type anymore…I’m going to the Arnold to watch cheaters and liars lift weights

Nobody wants to lift in it? What planet are you on exactly… plant America obviously. I know you might find this hard to believe but the IPF is a far more popular fed on a world level. And probably one of the most popular in the US too. Lets face it, the WPO is basically an American fed. And one of the reasons it’s so popular is because the Americans dominate it, unlike the IPF.

I never criticised WPO lifters btw. Just because I don’t think Westside is the only way to become a good powerlifter doesn’t mean I don’t follow and support the WPO/WPC.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misquote me. Have fun watching the Arnold. I can’t wait to see the results and videos of the 220 class.

PS; Maybe I was wrong about Chuck V, he just doesn’t seem as publicised as he used to be. I made a mistake.

[/quote]

I didn’t misquote you anywhere; actually, I didn’t quote you at all. What is your deal? You’ve gone on in this thread about how Westside isn’t good for beginners, it’s a marketing ploy, people who lift this way will get injured, etc., then when someone says something, you act like they misquoted you.

Chuck V still holds the all time squat record for heavyweights. He also pulled 800 last year.

I love living in “plant America.”

Ummm, we’re not talking about front squats anymore are we?

Sorry guys, I don’t know the politics involved in powerlifting. I guess that’s what’s known as blissful ignorance.

Carry on.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
I didn’t say ANY of them trained at Westside. My point was people using the westside style of training are probably more injury prone than others. The key word there is “probably”.[/quote]

If your point was that “people using the westside style of training are probably more injury prone than others”, why did you include these 4 lifters?

Matt K doesn’t train at all like they do at westside barbell.

Aichs takes ideas but modifies a lot to fit what he needs. And he doesn’t even have serious injuries besides the strains and tweaks that happen to powerlifters.

And ask Tate if he is fucked up from training at westside barbell, or is it maybe the fact that he trained using progressive overload for years and trained and competed for 20+ years. Seriously, ask him if using westside will “probably” make lifters more injury prone and ask him if training there is why he had a lot of injuries.

And your 4th example Wendler didn’t stop competing because of injuries but other reasons.

So your examples aren’t representative of westside barbell at all. Fact is powerlifters get hurt, no matter how they train or what federation.

Modi,

When you are training for a meet how many times a week do you back squat? How many times do you front squat? When you front squat are you doing them Olympic style with the hand placement or bodybuilding style with arms criss-crossed?

For me, I back squatted once a week but did front squats twice a week. I did the front squats after back squats and on deadlift day I did them after deads.

I kept the sets low but the weight heavy and rested 4 minutes between sets. This is what helped me in my carry-over to the regular PL squat.

In addition to what I’ve already said in earlier posts, I hope this helps.

(Sorry I mentioned “Westside”. I knew this was going to happen.)

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Mr. Bear wrote:

Do beginners need to use the dynamic method much? No. But conjugated training doesn’t mandate that they do. They would substitute RE for DE work.

Bottom line: conjugated training works, nobody wants to lift in the USAPL and squat 2 inches deep/walk weights out, I don’t even have enough energy to type anymore…I’m going to the Arnold to watch cheaters and liars lift weights

Nobody wants to lift in it? What planet are you on exactly… plant America obviously. I know you might find this hard to believe but the IPF is a far more popular fed on a world level. And probably one of the most popular in the US too. Lets face it, the WPO is basically an American fed. And one of the reasons it’s so popular is because the Americans dominate it, unlike the IPF.

I never criticised WPO lifters btw. Just because I don’t think Westside is the only way to become a good powerlifter doesn’t mean I don’t follow and support the WPO/WPC.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misquote me. Have fun watching the Arnold. I can’t wait to see the results and videos of the 220 class.

PS; Maybe I was wrong about Chuck V, he just doesn’t seem as publicised as he used to be. I made a mistake.

I didn’t misquote you anywhere; actually, I didn’t quote you at all. What is your deal? You’ve gone on in this thread about how Westside isn’t good for beginners, it’s a marketing ploy, people who lift this way will get injured, etc., then when someone says something, you act like they misquoted you.

Chuck V still holds the all time squat record for heavyweights. He also pulled 800 last year.

I love living in “plant America.”
[/quote]

Geez, bear. You have two years of training under your belt and apparently “Westside” has appointed you their official internet spokesperson and aspiring expert.

Amazing. Now I understand why you called somebody out earlier for what they have contributed to PL.

Apparently you have done more in/for powerlifting in your first two years of training than anyone else in the history of the sport.

Nice. I eagerly await your training log on elitefts.com.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
Modi,

When you are training for a meet how many times a week do you back squat? How many times do you front squat? When you front squat are you doing them Olympic style with the hand placement or bodybuilding style with arms criss-crossed?

For me, I back squatted once a week but did front squats twice a week. I did the front squats after back squats and on deadlift day I did them after deads.

I kept the sets low but the weight heavy and rested 4 minutes between sets. This is what helped me in my carry-over to the regular PL squat.

In addition to what I’ve already said in earlier posts, I hope this helps.

(Sorry I mentioned “Westside”. I knew this was going to happen.)[/quote]

I’ve only done one meet, and when I registered I thought it was a push/pull, so my training wasn’t geared towards heavy squatting at the time. I was just coming off an injury. So at the time I was back squatting once a week and front squatting once a week. I used a fairly narrow stance for both, and I used the arms crossed style for front squats (still working on the flexibility for the O-stlye).

I hadn’t trained my squat any heavier than the 4-6 range leading up to the meet, because I was still trying to build a base and had only been squatting for 6-8 weeks.

Don’t worry about the Westside tangent, it’s been an education for me, if nothing else.