T Nation

Front-Loading Test


#1

I've been doing some research on the benefits of front-loading Test. Curious to hear what some vets have to say about it. Maybe some topics to cover would be :

  • What is the best Test ester to front-load
  • If front-loading with a different ester than being used throughout the rest of the cycle, when would be the best time to make the transition and drop the dosage.
  • Maybe some reasons why front-loading is not encouraged by those who don't agree with it.
  • Other compounds that you could/have successfully front-load with Test or I guess in place of it - besides the obvious.

Again just curious to hear some personal experience with the topic.

I read one of JJ's old threads where he front-loaded Test & Eq. I believe - How did that play out for ya?


1st Cycle (Sigh) No BS
Kickstarting Method
PCT for Test E 10wk Cycle 500mg/wk
Length of Time for First Cycle?
PCT for Test E 10wk Cycle 500mg/wk
#2

[quote]Mlettier wrote:
I’ve been doing some research on the benefits of front-loading Test. Curious to hear what some vets have to say about it. Maybe some topics to cover would be :

  • What is the best Test ester to front-load[/quote]
    Propionate tends to be preferential.[quote]
  • If front-loading with a different ester than being used throughout the rest of the cycle, when would be the best time to make the transition and drop the dosage.[/quote]
    I’ve been told that one can use prop (wk 1) 100mg EOD, (wk2) 75mg EOD, (wk3) 50mg EOD, (wk4) 25mg EOD on top of test enanthate/cypionate dosages right from the start. Remember, we’re kickstarting because of the fact that enanthate takes about 4 weeks for people to ‘feel’ it.[quote]
  • Maybe some reasons why front-loading is not encouraged by those who don’t agree with it.[/quote]
    I’d imagine it wouldn’t be recommended for someone’s first cycle.[quote]
  • Other compounds that you could/have successfully front-load with Test or I guess in place of it - besides the obvious.

Again just curious to hear some personal experience with the topic.

I read one of JJ’s old threads where he front-loaded Test & Eq. I believe - How did that play out for ya?

[/quote]

And I can’t answer the last question.


#3

I hate to feel like a pin cushion with ED/EOD Prop injections front loading a
Test E/C cycle so i use Sust250
testosterone propionate - 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate - 60 mg, testosterone isocaproate - 60mg, and testosterone decanoate -100 mg.
It has short med and long esters. ill take sust every wk along with EQ or Deca for mass cycle


#4

[quote]Sust250FLA wrote:
I hate to feel like a pin cushion with ED/EOD Prop injections front loading a
Test E/C cycle so i use Sust250
testosterone propionate - 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate - 60 mg, testosterone isocaproate - 60mg, and testosterone decanoate -100 mg.
It has short med and long esters. ill take sust every wk along with EQ or Deca for mass cycle[/quote]

I’ve always heard that sust is better injected EOD in order to keep the blood levels more stable.


#5

[quote]Mlettier wrote:
I’ve been doing some research on the benefits of front-loading Test. Curious to hear what some vets have to say about it. Maybe some topics to cover would be :

  • What is the best Test ester to front-load
  • If front-loading with a different ester than being used throughout the rest of the cycle, when would be the best time to make the transition and drop the dosage.
  • Maybe some reasons why front-loading is not encouraged by those who don’t agree with it.
  • Other compounds that you could/have successfully front-load with Test or I guess in place of it - besides the obvious.

Again just curious to hear some personal experience with the topic.

I read one of JJ’s old threads where he front-loaded Test & Eq. I believe - How did that play out for ya?

[/quote]

I am JJ.

Hmm… well i decided to frontload the eq as i heard it is much better done in this way… i did the test too.

IIRC i did around 2g of test the first week and around 1.2g of boldenone. this meant i had achieved peak levels of each drug by day 4 or some such rubbish.
I must admit i was psychologically affected by the high androgens but gains came no quicker. It simply had no benefit for me. Simple as that.

I was trying it to test if peak blood levels are what cause the gains to come late with long esters and early with short esters… and it seems not, it may play a part but it is a minority of a part i believe.

If you wanted to kick start a long estered test cycle (cyp/enan) with prop… then that would be a different story and i have recommended this to others and written out example cycles with this as a base.
That will work to start gains earlier. Fact.

IMO i would use the prop for the first 6 weeks. I would taper it off as i rose the enanth (or whatever) dose from week 4 to 6.
This is just how i would try it - there is no reason you couldnt use solid dosing structure of both drugs.

This isnt due to creating peak levels earlier though, it is using prop to gain while the enanthate takes its sweet arse time. BBB and someone else had a theory about time till results and ester length that i didnt understand personally and i would be grateful to hear it in depth again.

Front loading is a myth. it is a waste of drugs IME. Kickstarts - even with the same drug but with a different mode of release, can and does work.

JJ


#6

[quote]Sust250FLA wrote:
I hate to feel like a pin cushion with ED/EOD Prop injections front loading a
Test E/C cycle so i use Sust250
testosterone propionate - 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate - 60 mg, testosterone isocaproate - 60mg, and testosterone decanoate -100 mg.
It has short med and long esters. ill take sust every wk along with EQ or Deca for mass cycle[/quote]

Can you spot your schoolboy error?

Can you see what is so blatantly obvious to the rest of us in your own words?

You inject prop ED/EOD yet you wont inject sust that frequently even though it only gives faster results due to the prop and Phenylprop…
Think about it like this.

If you injected 150mg of test cyp every monday and knew the gains would take weeks… would you:

A) Use a prop kickstart and inject 100mg once a week or

B) use a prop kickstart and inject 15mg ED?

You said at the beginning of your post you would do option B, yet by the end of the 8 line thesis, you admitted to replacing option B with option A. Not only that, but you are stating that the benefits and results of options A and B match each other, by your recommendation of the use of Sust250 in this way.
This is incorrect mate.

Just thought i’d point that out for ya :wink:

(Even when using 1 amp of sust you would do well to inject 1/3 over 3 days - mon, wed, fri - at least and split over the 7 at the most.)

Brook


#7

To achieve the planned steady state levels, the formula is always the same: inject on day 1 an amount which is the sum of what the usual injection would be plus the sum of what the total injections would be over the half-life of the particular drug.

To say that this is a “myth” and a “waste of drugs” is completely incorrect.


#8

What do you mean Bill? Do you mean that there is a benefit to frontloading in effect?

Or that it is an effective way to achieve peak planned blood levels?

What is your experience?


#9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
To achieve the planned steady state levels, the formula is always the same: inject on day 1 an amount which is the sum of what the usual injection would be plus the sum of what the total injections would be over the half-life of the particular drug.

To say that this is a “myth” and a “waste of drugs” is completely incorrect.[/quote]

ok so i’m a little confused over this formula … let’s clarify. say usual injection is 250mg. add that to the sum of what the total injection would be (this is what confused me) ? i’m guessing the total of the weekly dose (say 500mg). then put that over the half life of the drug (14 days?)

250 + 500 = 750/13 = 57.69

yeahh so i def. did that wrong. math was never my strongest subject …

WAIT! maybe add it to the sum of the whole cycle? soo like 5000mg we’ll say. so thats 5250/13= 403.84. OK so inject 400mg day one? then again on day 3 ?

still confused.


#10

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
To achieve the planned steady state levels, the formula is always the same: inject on day 1 an amount which is the sum of what the usual injection would be plus the sum of what the total injections would be over the half-life of the particular drug.

To say that this is a “myth” and a “waste of drugs” is completely incorrect.[/quote]

ok i’m going to lay out the formula using 250mg test cyp as the ex. take the sum of the usual injection (250) and add it to the total injections (5000). now put that over the half life (13?)

5250/13 = 403.84

so you’re saying to achieve planned steady state levels one should inject 400mg. on day 1 and again on day 3 ? how long would you keep those numbers ?

correct me if i used the formula incorrectly.


#11

Brook, yes, there’s a benefit.

If it’s the case that the blood levels associated with ongoing use of the doses you plan give you what you want, why have the first week or so way below those levels and the second week just coming up on them? Why not get to them right away?

A big part of why many say “Nothing happened in my first two weeks” is because they didn’t frontload.

If you frontload, and are using a substantial dose you ought to see a substantial increase in scale weight by day 4. Usually not so or not anything like it if not frontloading and using the same dose, unless the planned dose is so high that even being at partial levels is good enough.

For example if planning on using 4.5 grams per week (1.5 g three times per week), then just doing it straight, no frontloading, will still give a reasonable start. But most do not use such doses, nor need to – not even an NPC competitor typically needs that much. I mention it only to be thorough, not because it is often relevant, it isn’t.

Mlettier, let’s not use 13 days for the half-life of testosterone cypionate as I don’t think that is right. Let’s use 8 days. Aside from having a literature reference on that (which doesn’t prove it’s exactly right) it seems in practice to be about right or maybe even a touch long, for example it might really be 7 days.

But using 8 days and let’s say your planned rate was 750 mg/week (it wasn’t clear to me exactly what you were looking at in that regard, but if that isn’t the rate, substituting another number and redoing the calculation will work fine.)

So if the half-life is 8 days and the planned rate is 750 mg/week, the planned average amount of use per half-life is 750 mg times 8 divided by 7, or 857 mg.

If planning to inject that 750 mg as 250 mg three times per week, then the first injection is, or should approximate, 857 mg plus 250 mg. Which would be about 1107 mg. There’s no need to be so extremely precise, so for example 1000 mg or 1125 or 1250 mg would be acceptable substitutes.

The amount needed to get to what will be the ongoing level already having been provided, the next injection and all others need be only the ongoing 250 mg injections.

Basically, the first injection gets you right away to where you plan to be, and the following injections keep you there.

In contrast, if you just injected 250 mg on day 1, not only would your levels not be commensurate with the 750 mg/week level, nor would they be commensurate with the 250 mg/week level: they would be commensurate with about the 125 mg/week level or slightly less. So the cycle is starting off with an absolute whimper when done this way. Not the way to go.


#12

yep, i did the formula wrong …


#13

god bless ya Bill…


#14

in on this thread for later questions


#15

so lets try this…

if my cycle plan is going to be Test Enth, 500mg every 3 days for a weekly total of 1000mg (1g), then the math for an appropriate frontload would be as follows:

1000mg x 8 = 8000mg

8000mg / 7 = 1143mg, rounded to 1100mg

1100mg + 500mg = 1600mg for the day one injection, bringing my blood levels up to par right out of the gate. The rest of the injections will be 500mg.

1600mg seems high compared to what I have been reading lately, considering this frontload will be the start of my first cycle (12 weeks of Test Enth only, followed by PCT)

Any input is greatly appriciated.


#16

[quote]BrokenOverdrive wrote:
so lets try this…

if my cycle plan is going to be Test Enth, 500mg every 3 days for a weekly total of 1000mg (1g), then the math for an appropriate frontload would be as follows:

1000mg x 8 = 8000mg

8000mg / 7 = 1143mg, rounded to 1100mg

1100mg + 500mg = 1600mg for the day one injection, bringing my blood levels up to par right out of the gate. The rest of the injections will be 500mg.

1600mg seems high compared to what I have been reading lately, considering this frontload will be the start of my first cycle (12 weeks of Test Enth only, followed by PCT)

Any input is greatly appriciated.[/quote]

I see no reason whatsoever to run 1g of test for 12 weeks as a first cycle. Cut the duration down. You can probably lower the dose as well. 500-600mg/wk for 8 weeks with a frontload would be good for a first cycle. You may want to give some stats as well.


#17

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
BrokenOverdrive wrote:
so lets try this…

if my cycle plan is going to be Test Enth, 500mg every 3 days for a weekly total of 1000mg (1g), then the math for an appropriate frontload would be as follows:

1000mg x 8 = 8000mg

8000mg / 7 = 1143mg, rounded to 1100mg

1100mg + 500mg = 1600mg for the day one injection, bringing my blood levels up to par right out of the gate. The rest of the injections will be 500mg.

1600mg seems high compared to what I have been reading lately, considering this frontload will be the start of my first cycle (12 weeks of Test Enth only, followed by PCT)

Any input is greatly appriciated.

I see no reason whatsoever to run 1g of test for 12 weeks as a first cycle. Cut the duration down. You can probably lower the dose as well. 500-600mg/wk for 8 weeks with a frontload would be good for a first cycle. You may want to give some stats as well. [/quote]

I will transfer all of this into a new thread as well but here’s some stuff…

25 year old male, 5’8", 180lbs @ 12%bodyfat
Training for 5 years
Strength coach/personal trainer
Looking to gain mass (breaking 200lbs at 12% would be nice)
Diet is in check and training is on track, but after 5 years I feel I have finally found my genetic limits.
Recent bloodwork shows normal levels on all stats (cholesterol, blood pressure, triglycerides, and test was normal-low)
No pre-existing conditions, kidney problems, liver problems, or metabolic disorders.

Initially I was looking into a two compound stack, such as Deca. I decided to minimize the risk of interaction by going with the Test-only cycle for the first run. The 12 week timeframe is just the most common cycle length I have found and seems appropriate, but my experiance is limited. Also, the 1g a week was a result of the compromise of not using a two compound cycle. I want this first cycle to be as effective as possible and from what I have read, the 1g a week seems like a moderate amount for a beginner.

Thoughts?


#18

[quote]BrokenOverdrive wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
BrokenOverdrive wrote:
so lets try this…

if my cycle plan is going to be Test Enth, 500mg every 3 days for a weekly total of 1000mg (1g), then the math for an appropriate frontload would be as follows:

1000mg x 8 = 8000mg

8000mg / 7 = 1143mg, rounded to 1100mg

1100mg + 500mg = 1600mg for the day one injection, bringing my blood levels up to par right out of the gate. The rest of the injections will be 500mg.

1600mg seems high compared to what I have been reading lately, considering this frontload will be the start of my first cycle (12 weeks of Test Enth only, followed by PCT)

Any input is greatly appriciated.

I see no reason whatsoever to run 1g of test for 12 weeks as a first cycle. Cut the duration down. You can probably lower the dose as well. 500-600mg/wk for 8 weeks with a frontload would be good for a first cycle. You may want to give some stats as well.

I will transfer all of this into a new thread as well but here’s some stuff…

25 year old male, 5’8", 180lbs @ 12%bodyfat
Training for 5 years
Strength coach/personal trainer
Looking to gain mass (breaking 200lbs at 12% would be nice)
Diet is in check and training is on track, but after 5 years I feel I have finally found my genetic limits.
Recent bloodwork shows normal levels on all stats (cholesterol, blood pressure, triglycerides, and test was normal-low)
No pre-existing conditions, kidney problems, liver problems, or metabolic disorders.

Initially I was looking into a two compound stack, such as Deca. I decided to minimize the risk of interaction by going with the Test-only cycle for the first run. The 12 week timeframe is just the most common cycle length I have found and seems appropriate, but my experiance is limited. Also, the 1g a week was a result of the compromise of not using a two compound cycle. I want this first cycle to be as effective as possible and from what I have read, the 1g a week seems like a moderate amount for a beginner.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Ill comment in the new thread


#19

it’s up…