T Nation

Frickin' New Guy

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Soooo… you honestly didn’t see that guy’s feet leave the floor? All three reps? Really?

If the bar has to fall three inches to get to the rack position, it wasn’t heavy enough.

You’re not ‘trying to promote good form in the clean’, you’re advising others not to perform the lift. You’re also promoting the idea that if your form isn’t PERFECT, then you shouldn’t increase the weight.

I will, in fact, post a vid. I did not train today due to my head being filled with snot and aching like a sonovabish whenever I move (I really thought I was going to be over this summer cold by now). Maybe tomorrow I can squeeze in a session if I’m feeling better. Come to think of it, I might just be able to get my plates drilled and mounted to my wheels so I can drop the bar.[/quote]

I see the guy’s feet leaving the floor as he was kicking his heels into the ground. This is of course necessary, but not the same as jumping. The idea of jumping is to leave the floor, the idea of kicking the ground is to get (the heels) on the floor as quickly as possibe! You’re oversimplifying terms here. And if you go back to my vid, you’ll my feet do leave the ground. What do you think that loud bang is as I rack the bar???! Do you think that’s the bar as it hits my shoulders??! Anyway, I’ll be frank, I’ve tried to offer my thoughts, even some material showing where I am. Your advice on olympic-weightlifting is unhelpful (you think you know more than you do), and you’ve clearly explained that it’s difficult for you to show where you’re at in reality and back up all your talk because you:

  1. haven’t done cleans in a while
  2. don’t have a vid handy
  3. don’t have bumper plates
  4. have a strained brachioradialis
  5. have a cold
  6. need to get your wheels done up (whatever that means)
    phew

Tell you what, let’s make a deal - your next post here is either your doing a clean or nothing at all. Anymore bullshit excuses would just be a massive waste of my time. Get a grip

JayPierce, the point of power cleans in SS is explosiveness.

That means pulling as fast as possible during the whole time and ESPECIALLY when the bar reaches mid-thigh or so when you need to explode up. Not only does the bar trajectory need to stay good and you should be making very minor mistakes, you also need to time it right so that you learn to pull yourself under right away once the pull is finished.

Even if someone was the smartest person about how to use their body, your mind needs to learn the movement. One person, even if they try to have perfect technique, won’t be able to do it right away because the mind hasn’t “taught” the muscles to do this movement efficiently. Especially the explosive/getting under part. It will look slow and sluggish no matter how perfect one tries to make it.

My point is, even with good coaching, all you can try to do assuming SS is your first program and that it lasts roughly 3-6 months is to try and learn the movement. Most who try to add weight every time and do reps end up grinding them out and overpulling with their arms and barely getting under the bar in what ends up being a fast deadlift followed by an ugly upright row. If they end up doing this all the time, then the power cleans become POINTLESS. that is NOT explosive. that is a fast low weight deadlift followed by a “Cheating” upright row.

If instead you keep the weight lower and try to learn the movement, by the time you learn how to do it and your mind teaches the muscles how to be efficient at it, you will have moved on from this program. Perhaps the problem isn’t whether one will do power cleans or not. It’s rather that one shouldn’t try to add weight every single time.

I have lifters coming at the oly club that I go to. There are some who have been doing olympic lifting(not just power cleans twice a week) and after half a year they still don’t get how to be explosive. 90% of the power cleans I see on youtube from people that don’t do oly lifting are horrible. They are very likely to end up getting injured and they aren’t getting much benefit from them. If the OP wants to try them then I suggest he takes videos and stays patient trying to learn the lift as it will take many months before they really are useful.

[quote]yarni wrote:

  1. haven’t done cleans in a while[/quote]
    yup

nope

wish I did

had. But I don’t want another one.

good one, too.

you’ll see. I actually got the holes drilled and bought the hardware last night. Been meaning to do this for a while.

[quote]Tell you what, let’s make a deal - your next post here is either your doing a clean or nothing at all. Anymore bullshit excuses would just be a massive waste of my time. Get a grip
[/quote]
See, now, this is where you can kiss my ass. I have nothing to prove to you, and therefore no need to make ‘excuses’ for anything.

You two explain something to me: How are you supposed to learn a lift or learn to be explosive without ever actually doing it. It doesn’t matter that it will take months to learn and years to master. It takes months and years to learn how to do almost ANYTHING worth doing.

My only point here has been that you need to stop telling people to avoid lifts they’re not good at.

EDIT: And yes, I was wrong about you not jumping. Sorry 'bout that one.

Usually, people just feel intimidated by anything that resembles a technical exercise and just would rather not do them. This is just being a pussy, and sets a bad precedent for the management of both training and life. I think the Starting Strength includes an understandable method for learning to power clean, and just in case it’s not simple enough I rewrote it for the new book so that it is even simpler.

You don’t really need bumper plates to do them if you don’t have access, so that doesn’t wash either. They are in the program because an explosive movement is a valuable contribution to power production, and they make deadlifts get stronger faster.

Okay, you don’t need a coach to learn power cleans, because we fixed things up so that you can learn them out of the book. And what exactly is the downside of trying to learn them and failing? Firing squad? The fucking bodybuilders making fun of you from the safety of the dumbbell rack? Loss of wages? Just try them before you decide you can’t learn them without a coach.

  • Mark Rippetoe

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You two explain something to me: How are you supposed to learn a lift or learn to be explosive without ever actually doing it. It doesn’t matter that it will take months to learn and years to master. It takes months and years to learn how to do almost ANYTHING worth doing.

My only point here has been that you need to stop telling people to avoid lifts they’re not good at.[/quote]

What people have said is that ‘power cleans are a movement which takes considerably more time to gain benefit from than other alternatives’. The returns are small in the short term but big in the long term. Performing simpler movements (i.e bodybuilding style) gives much quicker returns. Look at the OP’s original post, he wrote:

Look at his goals, they’re all over the place. He wants to look good, simple as that. Olympic lifts are for people who WANT to learn the olympic lifts. No one is prohibiting the power clean, what is being given is CAUTION. To warn fellow lifters of potential dangers is especially important in the sport of Olympic Lifting because it already has a bad rep as being dangerous. It doesn’t need people pushing the lifts without caution and inviting that reputation to be strengthened. Lift carefully, that’s the message. You paraphrasing this message as ‘dont do them’ is really shortsighted.

What I like is that you gave the excuse of

and in your ripptoe quote which is supposed to defend what you have said, it reads

And no, you don’t HAVE TO offer video proof to anyone, but giving all this big talk and not posting a video is really bad forum etiquette! LOL

Anyway, Im off to suck at power cleans a little more. Maybe I will go and try a 100% M A X lift (I mean I am pretty sure I could muscle 120 KGS to shoulder height) and I’ll film it so you can watch me being crushed alive under my awful form.

Managed to get my wheels done. Had a lot to do today (it’s my weekend), so didn’t get to lift with them except to just try them out.

The bar + wheels = 125lbs, so 40lbs apiece. I only put about 5psi in each tire, so they’re not too bouncy.

[quote]drc003 wrote:
Specifically to regain strength and power[/quote]

[quote]yarni wrote:

Unless someone wants to specifically work on explosive strength (power), and/or has the will to learn olympic-style lifts, I say leave them alone.
[/quote]
I apologize for paraphrasing. Next time I’ll just use your own words.

And it figures you’d focus on that one sentence in that quote and ignore the main idea. That in itself is telling of the fact that you’re only arguing to try and prove me wrong, instead of defending the truth.

Excerpt from Starting Strength wiki:

[quote]Will I have to drop the barbell on the floor?

No. You can “catch” the barbell on your thighs and lower it to the ground from there. Adds an extra component of difficulty and fatigue so definitely be doing sets of 3 when you’re employing this technique. Eventually, yes, it will get too heavy to drop on your thighs… and you’ll need to drop it on the floor, but don’t worry, it’ll be a while before you need to buy those bumper plates. [/quote]

I was PC’ing 215lbs, I think, when I screwed up my brachioradialis. It had gotten too heavy to drop on my thighs, so I just started stopping it in the hang position on the way down. Thought I could get away with it forever, I guess…

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Managed to get my wheels done. Had a lot to do today (it’s my weekend), so didn’t get to lift with them except to just try them out.

The bar + wheels = 125lbs, so 40lbs apiece. I only put about 5psi in each tire, so they’re not too bouncy.[/quote]

Holy shit man that’s pretty awesome. Get a video up of you cleaning it.

Just warming up.

Here’s 175. Sadly, I didn’t get much farther (195, I think).

My form is horrible right now. Gotta get back into the groove and relearn how to pull myself under the bar. Kinda exciting to get back into doing these. Especially since I know I’ll be making leap-and-bounds improvements in the next few months.

Sorry for the shitty cell-phone vids. Only camera I have that’s working at the moment.

BTW, anyone know why the hell they’re playing at 2x speed?

EDIT: nevermind, just hit the youtube links

Yeah I mean it’s pretty much an upright row, assisted in momentum by a deadlift. It kind of comes accross as strong proof that you shouldn’t worry about adding more weight (im saying that for anyone), and that you should really focus on perfecting the movement, but Im sure you’d disagree

I mean you are clearly an overall strong person, but it is clear that by not pushing extra weight and focusing on proper technique you could lift WAAAAY more.

Well, I really wasn’t pulling with my arms. The Scoop just didn’t feel right and so the setup for the second pull was all wrong. It was all momentum from the first pull carrying the bar up to my shoulders. I’ll get it right, though.

Perfect is a word I really hate, especially when it comes to lifting. There is always room for improvement, and you can’t really say you have a lift down to perfection unless you can keep the same form on your 1RM. I definitely need improvement, but I’m not going to wait until perfection to move the weight up. RIGHT yes, perfect definitely not.

And it’s still not a reason to throw the lift out. Even with as terrible as my form is, my erectors and traps are already a little bit sore this morning from lifting with 195, even though I can DL 495. So there is still some benefit to performing the lift, short-term and long-term. (btw, I think my form was better later on in the session, but I didn’t film it)

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Well, I really wasn’t pulling with my arms. The Scoop just didn’t feel right and so the setup for the second pull was all wrong. It was all momentum from the first pull carrying the bar up to my shoulders. I’ll get it right, though.

Perfect is a word I really hate, especially when it comes to lifting. There is always room for improvement, and you can’t really say you have a lift down to perfection unless you can keep the same form on your 1RM. I definitely need improvement, but I’m not going to wait until perfection to move the weight up. RIGHT yes, perfect definitely not.[/quote]

Haha, jesus man think outwards a little, perfection doesn’t necessarily exist. The constant struggle to improve can be stated as ‘trying to reach perfection’, but it does not say whether or not that goal is possible. Clearly it’s not, although some seem to come close. And I think it’s clear that if someone lifts a light weight VERY well, he will probably lift a heavy weight not so well. However if the lifter has no form to begin with, the heavy lift is just going to be a FUCKING MESS.

As for your form, I’m really not qualified to comment, but even my layman eyes can see a complete lack of explosiveness. Maybe from a bodybuilding perspective, you’re doing them in the most effective way (sorry but you are using your arms to some extent) - but you’re actually limiting what you will later be able to lift.

In ignoring learning the technique properly and moving the weights up fast, you make quick progress but soon become much more limited than you would be had you learnt to use your hips/glutes/hamstrings properly. But what I can see is that you have decent upper bodystrength, so you are really able to just bully the weight up. That advantage I dont have

[quote]yarni wrote:
Haha, jesus man think outwards a little, perfection doesn’t necessarily exist. The constant struggle to improve can be stated as ‘trying to reach perfection’, but it does not say whether or not that goal is possible. Clearly it’s not, although some seem to come close. And I think it’s clear that if someone lifts a light weight VERY well, he will probably lift a heavy weight not so well. However if the lifter has no form to begin with, the heavy lift is just going to be a FUCKING MESS. [/quote]
I know exactly what you’re talking about. But you have to be careful with your wording when giving advice to total newbs. I’m not advocating trying a 1RM lift without having the form down. But refusing to move the weight up without having it textbook perfect is a mistake.

I agree completely. I need more practice before I’ll feel comfortable with the movement again. Once I get the Scoop down, the second pull will come along just fine. You will always use your arms, but it should be to pull yourself under the bar, not pull the bar up (after the jump). I wasn’t using much weight, so I didn’t need to get under the bar, but I still had to guide my body to the correct spot to catch it.

[quote]In ignoring learning the technique properly and moving the weights up fast, you make quick progress but soon become much more limited than you would be had you learnt to use your hips/glutes/hamstrings properly. But what I can see is that you have decent upper bodystrength, so you are really able to just bully the weight up. That advantage I dont have
[/quote]
I never said move the weights up fast, just move them up. Get out of your comfort zone and challenge yourself. It’s the only way you’ll improve, and the only way to really see if you have the form down or not.

Here’s the resource I used to learn it in the first place. By some of your comments, you seem to have a couple of misconceptions, yourself. Give it a read: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3264790/Corrective-Power-Clean-Teaching-Techniques

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Excerpt from Starting Strength wiki:

[quote]Will I have to drop the barbell on the floor?

No. You can “catch” the barbell on your thighs and lower it to the ground from there. Adds an extra component of difficulty and fatigue so definitely be doing sets of 3 when you’re employing this technique. Eventually, yes, it will get too heavy to drop on your thighs… and you’ll need to drop it on the floor, but don’t worry, it’ll be a while before you need to buy those bumper plates. [/quote]

I was PC’ing 215lbs, I think, when I screwed up my brachioradialis. It had gotten too heavy to drop on my thighs, so I just started stopping it in the hang position on the way down. Thought I could get away with it forever, I guess…[/quote]

Just happened to see this the other day. I’ve only recently started PC’ing(Hella fun exercise!) and I’m only doing 185lbs at the mo’ but I’ve never had a problem cleaning on a concrete floor with iron plates. And it’s in a public gym too! Just sayin’…

[quote]drc003 wrote:

We have a heavy bag, perfect pull up bar, a stationary bike and a barbell with about 45 lbs of weights. So enough to get going at least.
[/quote]

Find a better gym.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Nothing against this Dave guy, but I see nothing’s changed in the time I’ve been away in the PWI forums. If you were paying me vast sums of money for the latest cutting edge sooper zooty training info designed just for your situation? I’d tell you to pick any solid beginners routine consisting mainly of large basic exercises with a few smaller movements thrown in where needed. M-W-S is fine as your not being exactly a spring chicken and being outta shape will require more recovery than work at least for a while, assuming you actually know what “work” means.

Some cardio (or whatever they’re calling it now) of some kind on off days wouldn’t hurt either. I would tell you to instantly add 1000 smart calories a day, which does NOT mean looooow fat, but would require a separate post. I would further advise you in the strongest possible terms to lock your scale somewhere and give somebody else the key unless you are disciplined enough to weigh yourself no more than once a week. Mirror good, scale unreliable distraction if used all the time.

Once we got this settled, which would take exactly one decent conversation, I would then give you the most valuable piece of advice of all. DO NOT go near this or any other related web site at all for an absolute bare minimum of 3 months with 6 probably being better. Why? Because you will wind up reading all manner of neato n nifty new information which you will be quite certain is the missing key to making you an underwear model by Christmas and you will thereby be training in 16 different directions at once and going nowhere in particular with astonishing efficiency.

If you wanna look like a man, eat like a man. Pick something hard and basic and work it CONSISTENTLY and with the unleashed ferocity of a starving lion.(very few will do that) Do it for many months without changing very much and watch what happens. Yes that’s boring, but it will serve just about everybody’s first year better tan 99% of what people do. You’re welcome and that will be 1000 dollars please =][/quote]

maybe the best post ive seen on this forum…