French & German Anti-U.S. Textbook

Seems as if the influence has been going both ways, but only one side has gotten all bent about it…

In general, I recommend reading this book by Tyler Cowen on cultural exchange - it’s titled “Creative Destruction: How Globalization is Changing the World’s Cultures”

[quote]vroom wrote:
Government officials run school systems in every country…

I mean, I don’t want to get into a fight about it, but your school system is no different than any other in this regard.

You really think US (or Canadian, or German, or Australian, or British, or whatever) school books are actually more honest about presenting the flaws of their own country as opposed to others?

What I saw in the article was that the books were supposedly going to be anti-American, but that they weren’t… [/quote]

Last time I checked HS teachers around here were ‘limited’ to their choice of textbooks barring only cost and standardized test requirements, and even then it is locally decided as to whether the material selected is appropriate or not. I agree that governments run education, but you wouldn’t by any stretch of the imagination say that President Bush ordered a school book to be written and used in any regard. Further, you wouldn’t pretend that if he did so, it wouldn’t be a moral outrage.

I’ll admit to gross ignorance of the French school system wrt this issue, and as per my agreement w/ALDurr, this author could quite easily be distorting the truth, but as it stands, the statements sicken me. Also, as I said, there is an enormous difference between omitting the faults of your own country or debating over Benedict Arnold and openly and baselessly criticizing another country in history classes.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Seems as if the influence has been going both ways, but only one side has gotten all bent about it…[/quote]

In the last couple of decades, especially since the fall of the Berlin wall, the influence of the US in Europe has far outweighed the influence of Europe in the US; there’s absolutely no comparison.

Also, there’s a difference in constructive vs destructive effects; in the last couple of centuries Europe helped CREATE a US culture – there was no culture being destroyed, since most of the settlers were European anyway. The US’ influence in Europe, however, has been mainly destructive; it is fundamentally removing individual national identities – that were there for hundreds, if not thousands of years – and replacing it with ours…

Having said that, Europeans are particularly defensive of their culture these days, mainly because they are also suffering a much more aggressive and pervasive attack from within – from Arab immigrants.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
I’ll admit to gross ignorance of the French school system wrt this issue,[/quote]

In all countries in Europe I know of – including France, last time I checked – the textbooks are picked by each teacher, who has complete freedom as to which book to pick; of course, there’s a loosely outlined program that s/he has to follow (which can say something as vague as like “Teach 17th century History”), but that’s as far as “Government control” goes.

It’s amazing how pissed off you guys are at people who are simply trying to help students think critically; you’re doing a great job at supporting the negative stereotypes that a lot of Europeans created of Americans since we elected Bush II as President…

I think you hit the nail on the head with both of those posts, hspder - I couldn’t agree more.

Although I should add that not all of the US influence on Europe has been destructive, and that some of what was destructive served a positive outcome, ergo the unification of Europe and forgetting ancient animosities.

The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.

how can anyone argue that it is NOT anti american when it portrays the US and the USSR as morally equivalent?

Germany and France should be thankful for the US presence in europe after WWII. Lets remember, it wasn’t the french airlifting supplies into eastern germany. It wasn’t the french/germans stopping the soviets from overrunning the rest of the continent. It wasn’t the french who liberated their country(although, they claim otherwise! “La France Se Libere!”). It wasn’t the french who pushed for a united germany…

there is a difference between omiting your mistakes and glorifying your accomplishments…it is a whole new thing to completely demonize another country.

4…india.

[quote]Diomede wrote:
how can anyone argue that it is NOT anti american when it portrays the US and the USSR as morally equivalent?
[/quote]

Within the context of the cold war specifically, in regards to weapons build up and essentially holding the entire world in limbo while deciding whether or not to destroy it, I don’t think that portraying the US and USSR as morally equivalent is necessarily off base. Now if you want to talk about human rights, democracy, etc, that’s a whole different ballgame.

[quote]Diomede wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.

4…india. [/quote]

MAYBE - remember, they’re about 10 years behind China at the moment.

[quote]knewsom wrote:
Diomede wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.

4…india.

MAYBE - remember, they’re about 10 years behind China at the moment.[/quote]

10 years is a drop in the bucket…

[quote]knewsom wrote:
Diomede wrote:
how can anyone argue that it is NOT anti american when it portrays the US and the USSR as morally equivalent?

Within the context of the cold war specifically, in regards to weapons build up and essentially holding the entire world in limbo while deciding whether or not to destroy it, I don’t think that portraying the US and USSR as morally equivalent is necessarily off base. Now if you want to talk about human rights, democracy, etc, that’s a whole different ballgame.[/quote]

And what about France and britains nuclear buildup? Sure it wasn’t nearly as large as the US/USSR, then again, their economies arent nearly as large as the US or the USSR.

Does every nuclear bomb enabled country not hold the whole world in limbo while deciding whether or not to destroy it? Shit, france just came out and said it will nuke anyone who nukes them! thats as forward as any soviet or american diplomat ever was…

[quote]hspder wrote:
lucasa wrote:
I’ll admit to gross ignorance of the French school system wrt this issue,

In all countries in Europe I know of – including France, last time I checked – the textbooks are picked by each teacher, who has complete freedom as to which book to pick; of course, there’s a loosely outlined program that s/he has to follow (which can say something as vague as like “Teach 17th century History”), but that’s as far as “Government control” goes.

It’s amazing how pissed off you guys are at people who are simply trying to help students think critically; you’re doing a great job at supporting the negative stereotypes that a lot of Europeans created of Americans since we elected Bush II as President…
[/quote]

Untrue, my questions valued critical thinking in a virtually identical manner to the way theirs did. Sure, they were critical of France, but they weren’t Anti-France. Also, I don’t doubt what you’re saying about French/German school systems, and would only assume equal ignorance of our own educational system and equal disgust at a similar action represented in a similar light.

Further, let’s be real about things/keep them in perspective, my/our transgressions against the French as an American on this thread magnified 10-fold couldn’t possibly equal the effect of that article and the claims it makes reduced by the same amount.

BTW-I’m chalking up that “I told you so…” to ALDurr.

I understand the point, but I think there has also been a lot of constructive influence as well – at the very least, in supplying a market for items from Europe that U.S. customers want to consume.

To another extent, the destruction of the national identities might be seen as at least as much of a function of globalization as of the U.S. – it’s just that the U.S. is a big player in the globalized market as well. But I’m certain that there are other influences coming in via globalization – and “Europe-ization” – that are also working changes to the culture. There may be McDonald’s everywhere in Paris, but there’s also sushi.

I think your last point is the most telling – they may see the U.S. as the source of all their cultural problems, but the sources of the changes are many, and both internal and external.

[quote]Diomede wrote:
And what about France and britains nuclear buildup? Sure it wasn’t nearly as large as the US/USSR, then again, their economies arent nearly as large as the US or the USSR.

Does every nuclear bomb enabled country not hold the whole world in limbo while deciding whether or not to destroy it? Shit, france just came out and said it will nuke anyone who nukes them! thats as forward as any soviet or american diplomat ever was…[/quote]

I don’t think this really flies…

[quote]knewsome wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.

Diomede wrote:
4…india. [/quote]

I think India has the potential to perhaps even surpass China. They are a leader in outsourcing with the U.S. for reasons that go beyond speaking English well.

But I do think they are currently behind the Chinese.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Diomede wrote:
And what about France and britains nuclear buildup? Sure it wasn’t nearly as large as the US/USSR, then again, their economies arent nearly as large as the US or the USSR.

Does every nuclear bomb enabled country not hold the whole world in limbo while deciding whether or not to destroy it? Shit, france just came out and said it will nuke anyone who nukes them! thats as forward as any soviet or american diplomat ever was…

I don’t think this really flies…[/quote]

I think it is hypocritical of france to say that we were part of a “balance of terror” holding the whole world at their mercy…as if france wasn’t involved!

De Gaulle said this: “Within ten years we shall have whatever is necessary to kill 80 million Russians. Well I reckon one does not light-heartly attack people who are able to kill 80 million Russians, even if one can kill 800 million French, that is if there were 800 million French.” That was in reference to the force de frappe.

France and Britain were as much part of that Balance of Terror as the US and the USSR…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
knewsome wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.

Diomede wrote:
4…india.

I think India has the potential to perhaps even surpass China. They are a leader in outsourcing with the U.S. for reasons that go beyond speaking English well.

But I do think they are currently behind the Chinese.[/quote]

India is not able to control their population nearly as effectively as china…but once india gets going, i see them becoming a major, major player in the world stage. They are already due to pass china in total population, and i think will probably take the economic lead eventually…

[quote]hspder wrote:

Also, there’s a difference in constructive vs destructive effects; in the last couple of centuries Europe helped CREATE a US culture – there was no culture being destroyed, since most of the settlers were European anyway. The US’ influence in Europe, however, has been mainly destructive; it is fundamentally removing individual national identities – that were there for hundreds, if not thousands of years – and replacing it with ours…
[/quote]

If it is occurring, this seems to me to be a matter of choice by the Europeans.

And it sounds a bit like hyperbole - the Austrians I know are still very Austrian and don’t want to be thought of as Germans, regardless of whether they buy Coke products on occasion. Moreover, the formation of the EU stands to do more to dissemble national identities in European countries than does the fact that people buy food from a McDonald’s from time to time.

[quote]hspder wrote:
Also, there’s a difference in constructive vs destructive effects; in the last couple of centuries Europe helped CREATE a US culture – there was no culture being destroyed, since most of the settlers were European anyway.
The US’ influence in Europe, however, has been mainly destructive; it is fundamentally removing individual national identities – that were there for hundreds, if not thousands of years – and replacing it with ours…
[/quote]

I’m sorry, I am sooo tired of this argument. I mean no disrespect, hspder, but you make it sound as though there is some American conspiracy to destroy European culture. There isn’t: American culture is spreading across Europe and the rest of the world because it sells. If Europeans want to prevent American “influences” from destroying their culture, all they need do is stop buying American products; stop going to American movies; stop listening to Amwerican music. It’s no more complicated than that…we arent forcing anything on anyone.