Chris, maybe you misunderstood me. ~x~ nailed what I meant. If you only train the prime movers, sure you will gain strength in that one motion, but you will have an imbalance and a lack of functionality.
I figure if you train machines only for say, 6 months, and then try to bench the same weight you can machine chest press, you will probably crush your windpipe or seperate your shoulder.
Sure you’ve got the pressing power to move the weight, but you can’t control it.
~x~ and I are in total agreement. I was just trying harder to be funny. When I was training, I cautioned my clients that machine strength was illusory because you weren’t building the ability to control the weight–just the ability to push it in a grooved path.
I did read your post as asking about training prime movers and stabilizers separately, though, which strikes me as a bad idea for precisely the reasons I laid out.
i have shoulder problems which at this point keeps me from benching even 135. but on a hammer incline press machine, i can put 4 plates each side and do a few reps.
this may lead one to a coulpe of conclusions,
one: machins are a good way to train around injury when nothing else is doable,
two: machines and the weight one can do on them is totally meaningless…
I disagree with those who say machines help beginners learn to use good form. They teach your nervous nothing about form other than how to use that particular machine’s predetermined path. It makes more sense to have someone use free weights from the outset, as they will already be using lighter weights generally, and therefore their stabilizers will be engaged from the start, as well as stimulating their CNS, and preparing it for the more productive free-weight exercise to come.
Chris you misunderstood me. I wasn’t asking about training prime movers and stabilizers seperatly. Thats dumb altogether.
Heavy, whats a shoulder impingment feel like? I think I’ve got one.
How does the leg extension and leg curl machine hurt knees? Same old thing? Set path, unnatural movement? Please explain the benefits of squats over these things.
Sorry about the misunderstanding. I agree that training prime movers and stabilizers separately is dumb, but that’s essentially what the trainers who have their clients using machines and wobble boards are doing. I don’t think you’ll get any disagreement from anyone on this forum that machine strength is illusory–or at least without any real-world carryover.
I was started on a bunch of Hammerstrength machines. The plate loading kind. They’re good for a while but I realised that the real joy of lifting and body building comes from focusing my thoughts when moving free weights around.
It’s important to keep your mind as engaged as the weights when lifting or you won’t develop. I think it’s safest to start on free weights, and cable machines. I’d leave the rest alone with the exception of the sled for legs which I happen to like.
I have a tricky back so I do use machines for some leg work. Machines are useful when you have an injury.
My suggestion to your friend is start doing basic full body workouts with dumbells and the cable machines. Some of the best exercises don’t even need weights and they’re fundamental: dips, pull ups and push ups.
I’d help your friend by printing out Joel Marion’s “Training for maximal size” and having him work from there. It’s a good workout, no machines, except for the leg-press/sled and it’ll get him to concentrate hard when working out.
I’ve been lifting for 25 years. I remember when I was in H.S. and began doing a lot of bench presses in my basement. Every couple of months or so I would go into my school’s weight room and see how much more I could bench press on the universal bench press machine. Do you think I could have increased my free weight bench press using the universal machine? Hee Hee, Cmon! Have you ever seen someone who’s trained exclusively on machines “attempt” to lift free weights for the first time? Pretty funny, huh, with the bar shaking all over the place.
With that said, machines are not all bad. It depends on what one’s goals are. Bottom line though, if someone really wants to do things right and in the best manner they should learn the free weight movements from the get go. Now, training with machines is better than lying on the couch, however! But for somebody who really wants to get after it, go with the free weights!
And, finally, to the original poster here, get out of that wussy gym! You don’t need that terrible chick personal trainer!
I don’t listen to a darn thing she says! She’s about 90lbs of skinny with no muscle at all. But its the best gym around. And usually the rack is all mine! She doesn’t tell me anything anymore, it’s not worth the effort or embarassment of being proved to be stupid.
I like to think of myself as a “craftsman” when it comes to building my body. In order for a craftsman to do his job he needs the proper tools. I think every good piece of equipment, whether barbells and dumbbells, or machines has a place.
When time is limited, and I am on a hardcore phase of training, I always stick with my first choice for effectiveness, barbells and dumbbells. However, during that phase of training when there is extra time, or boredom rears its ugly head, I use a machine now and then.
I have done four sets of strict close grip underhand chins, then after a :30 rest used the nautilus curl machine and cranked out 8 to 10 more reps. The biceps were worked along with the traps and other muscles doing the chins, but then the focus shifts to only the biceps for one very intense final set.
I have done this style of training with other machines as well. Finish off a hard series of 4 sets of Dumbbell bench presses, then with only :30 seconds rest nail one set for triceps on a machine. (Of course I have grabbed a dumbbell and done standing extensions as well). This sort of training has benefited me greatly in many ways.
Ultimately I agree that free weights are the best, and most efficient means to strength, if one had to choose. The good part is that we don’t have to choose! We can enjoy as a change of pace, or out of sheer boredom many different sorts of equipment. Keep an open mind, each piece of equipment is a tool and can be used for your betterment when you want it, and as you see fit!
This is really off topic but it just reminded me of chris's post...I was at the mall today and I saw a girl in a real short skirt (in NY in jan.) and she had the hooker boots on going to her knee caps, the only thing i could think of was somone squating on the smith.....
P.S, by the looks of things I dont think she has ever seen a gym though
Dave, What the crap does shorts and hooker pumps have to do with squatting in the smith? Im sure its hilarious. Please show me the logic. (I wanna laugh too)
heres the post I was thinking of when I saw those boots…
(It strikes me as roughly equivalent to wearing shorts with boots that go up to the knee in winter. Sure, your legs are fully covered, but you’re really half-assing it. Why would you train the prime movers with machines and the stabilizers with free weights when you can cover both with free weights in half the time?)
Billyboy why, don’t you offer your friend to train with you. Or how about this see if you can get him to pay you to be his trainer. Also, if this is a beginner weight trainer. Some machines is actually good for him. But, I would not give them a full- machine work-out.
