Free Speech in Europe

BostonBarrister · May 28, 2005, 12:14pm

Tom Wolfe once said that while it was constantly asserted that fascism was descending on the U.S., it always seemed to land in Europe. I wonder if the same will hold true for theocracy – or at least parts of it.

Important reading, if you’re interested in international free speech issues ? or in what might happen in the U.S. if those who support European-style “hate speech” bans prevail here.

http://www.volokh.com/posts/chain_1117064349.shtml

Europe and Free Speech: The European approach to speech that conveys disfavored viewpoints ? often defended by many Europeans and some Americans as more “reasonable” and “flexible” than the American “absolutist” approach ? is apparently on display in the criminal prosecution of Oriana Fallaci for allegedly libeling Islam. ( Dagger in hand ) I hope Chris Newman, who has blogged a good deal about Fallaci in the past, will have more on the subject soon.

By the way, the story says “Grasso’s ruling homed in on 18 sentences in the book, saying some of Fallaci’s words were ‘without doubt offensive to Islam and to those who practice that religious faith.’” Is there a list somewhere of those 18 sentences?

UPDATE: Chris Newman is looking for the 18 sentences, but in the meantime posts a translation of a likely relevant passage from Fallaci’s book. ( Dagger in hand )

Dustin · May 28, 2005, 2:12pm

I find this all quite disgusting and can’t figure out why Europe and the U.S. feel the need to cater to Muslims.

Dustin

futuredave · May 28, 2005, 3:49pm

Truly frightening.

As someone who leans to the left on many issues, I find that “liberals” themselves are embarassingly weak-kneed on many issues.

Can you imagine the outcry of the the left in this country if she were on trial for attacking Christianity?

Of course, they’re not afraid of Christians, so they’d speak up.

Sifu · May 28, 2005, 4:27pm

The 18 things you can’t say about Muslims in Italy.
Thanks to Ilario Vige, my indefatigable source of Oriana intel, I now have a pdf copy of an article from the Italian newspaper Libero, which reproduces the text of the complaint filed against Fallaci. How?s that for social capital in the internet age? (Ah, Prof. Putnam, there are more things in heaven and earth?) I don?t have time now to try to translate all of it, but eventually I hope to obtain copies of the cited code provisions so as to be in a position to understand the way the legal issues are being framed. What I can do for now is list the 18 ?incriminating sentences.? As I had guessed, a few of the offending passages are from the section I translated earlier. Many of them are mere snippets taken from longer contexts. For now I will present them only as they appear in the complaint (at least as cited in the article), ellipses and all. If there is reason to do so later I can provide more of the context for each.

during the occupation of Montecassino in the 9th century ?the Muslims amused themselves by sacrificing each night the virginity of a nun. Do you know where? On the altar of the cathedral.?
while occupying Constantinople in 1453, the Turks led by Mohammed II ?decapitated even newborns. And extinguished candles with their little heads.?
?In a woman the Koran sees above all a womb to give birth.?
?In the dream that the sons of Allah have been nurturing for years, the dream of blowing up Giotto?s Tower or the Tower of Pisa or the cupola of St. Peter?s or the Eiffel Tower or Westminster Abbey or the cathedral of Cologne and so on . . .?
??halal butchery is barbarous? just as ?shechita butchery is barbarous. That is, the Jewish version which is carried out in the same way and consists of slitting the animals? throats without dazing them.?
France is a country ?where Islamic racism, that is the hatred of the infidel-dogs, reigns supreme and is never put on trial, never punished. Where the Muslims declare openly: ?We must take advantage of the democratic space that France offers us, we must exploit democracy, that is, make use of it to occupy territory.? Where not a few of them add: ?In Europe the Nazi position was not understood. Or not by all. It was judged a vehicle of homicidal folly, when actually Hitler was a great man.?
for Muslims ?biology is a shameless science because it is occupied with the human body and sex.?
? . . . we will have to resign ourselves to the yoke of a creed that . . . instead of love spreads hatred and instead of liberty slavery.?
?a Right and a Left . . . that (in Italy) are both on the side of the enemy (Islam).?
the demands of the Islamics with regard to school curricula mean that in literature classes ?we will not be allowed to include for example The Divine Comedy . . .nor the Canticle of Creatures nor the Sacred Hymns of Alessandra Manzoni . . .? etc. etc.
? . . . the uncouth wailing of the muezzin . . .?
the terrorist attacks of the last twenty years have caused six thousand deaths ?to the glory of the Koran. In obedience to its verses.?
?Our Jesus of Nazareth . . . they put him in their Danna where he eats like Trimalchio, drinks like a drunkard, screws like a sexual maniac.?
?. . . the revolting, reactionary, obtuse, feudal Right is found today only in Islam. It is Islam.?
infibulation is ?the mutilation that the Muslims force on little girls to prevent them, once they are grown . . . from enjoying the sexual act. It is a female castration that the Muslims practice in twenty-eight countries of Islamic Africa and because of which two million persons die each year from sepsis or loss of blood . . .?
the Italians afflicted by atavistic loss of pride ?are not offended when Islamic immigrants urinate on their monuments or soil the sacristies of their churches or toss their crucifixes out the window of a hospital.?
?. . . Islam is a pond. And a pond is a trough of stagnant water. . . it is never purified . . . it is easily polluted, like a watering hole for livestock of little value. The pond does not love life: It loves death . . .?
? . . .despite the massacres through which the sons of Allah have bloodied us and bloodied themselves for over thirty years, the war that Islam has declared against the West . . . is a cultural war. . .they kill us in order to bend us. To intimidate us . . . Their goal is not to fill cemeteries. Not to destroy our skyscrapers . . . It is to destroy our soul, our ideas. Our feelings and our dreams. It is to subjugate the West once again.?
UPDATE: As you can see, Oriana doesn’t really live up to her claim that this time around she is appealing solely to the power of reason and putting aside her rage and pride. This was my main disappointment with the book when I read it. She does cite a lot of facts in support of her attacks on Islam, and as you can see several of the 18 sentences are simply historical assertions. She doesn’t provide any footnotes or sources for any of her facts though (no doubt Muslim historians paint things differently), and it is undeniable that the overall tone of her book is one of visceral revulsion for Muslims, not just rationally alarmed criticism of certain political and cultural developments in Europe. This is unfortunate, because her book does raise a lot of genuinely alarming and important issues, and I think this time around her haranguing jeremiads, bracing and delightfully trenchant though they can be (particularly when directed at various politicians and organizations), actually wind up detracting from the message. They surely detract from the chances of persuading anyone not on her side already, or even of getting them to give her an open-minded hearing. They also make it easy to understand why a Muslim who does not wish to blow up the Eiffel Tower or conquer the West would rightly feel that he was being stereotyped and hatred being fomented against him. On the other hand, plenty of people like the ones Fallaci describes assuredly exist, and the gap will not be bridged by pretending it isn’t there. None of my criticism, of course, changes my view that in a free society this sort of expression ought to be beyond the reach of legal sanctions

This came from the same blog. I can see how some of her comments might be construed as predjudicial.

I think the fair thing to do would be to equally apply the hate speech laws to the koran as well.

Dustin · May 29, 2005, 2:01pm

[quote]Sifu wrote:

I think the fair thing to do would be to equally apply the hate speech laws to the koran as well.

[/quote]

Why don’t we (the Western world) just get rid of hate speech laws altogether.

Dustin

Wreckless · May 29, 2005, 5:22pm

1 word

Dixie Chicks

ok, that’s 2 words

GDollars37 · May 29, 2005, 8:14pm

[quote]Dustin wrote:
I find this all quite disgusting and can’t figure out why Europe and the U.S. feel the need to cater to Muslims.

Dustin[/quote]

Combination of political correctness and (in Europe) fear. Not too many intellectuals are in a hurry to get the Van Gogh treatment.

GDollars37 · May 29, 2005, 8:14pm

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Sifu wrote:

I think the fair thing to do would be to equally apply the hate speech laws to the koran as well.

Why don’t we (the Western world) just get rid of hate speech laws altogether.

Dustin[/quote]

Agree with you there. But don’t hold your breath.

BostonBarrister · May 30, 2005, 8:39am

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
1 word

Dixie Chicks

ok, that’s 2 words[/quote]

I fail to understand the relevance? No one in the government was going to prosecute the Dixie Chicks, and I’m not entirely sure how their fans refusing to buy their bad records impacts their free speech rights.

BostonBarrister · May 30, 2005, 8:45am

sifu,

That’s precisely the point – over here in the U.S., the 1st Amendment’s free speech protections disallow such prosecutions at all. We have the right to criticize religions, political groups, or whomever we want – and people have the right to argue the alternative point of view.

It’s important that even incorrect ideas be exposed to argument, rather than pushed down to fester below the surface.

jacross · May 30, 2005, 9:19am

You could hardly call what the Dixie Chicks did ‘hate speech’.

A better analogy would be something like how the KKK are allowed to march.

Wreckless · May 30, 2005, 12:30pm

An even better analogy would be how the people, beding over backwards to protect the KKKs “right to march” fell over each other to boycot the Dixie Chicks.

Freedom of speech is fine, but somehow it’s even finer when the one speeking shares your opinion.

In Europe we believe it’s NOT ok to spread hate and fear.

I heard Van Gogh on the radio and saw him on tv a couple of times. A very anoying person. He was proud at insulting the muslim community. His “free speech” was namecalling.
And then it caught up with him. Does that make him a saint? Does that make a martyr of free speech?
I don’t think so.

He was a fool and he met another fool. Such is the fate of fools.

And to the people that would like to apply the hate speech laws to the koran: how about the bible? Read it recently?

Sifu · May 30, 2005, 5:22pm

I agree with you BB I like our first amendment protections.

Just because you have freedom of speech, it doesn’t meant that people who hear you don’t have the right to get pissed off. This is something the Dixie Chicks learned the hardway.

However in this situation I think that turnabout is fair play. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Islamists love to throw stones.

Cream · May 31, 2005, 10:39am

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
In Europe we believe it’s NOT ok to spread hate and fear.

I heard Van Gogh on the radio and saw him on tv a couple of times. A very anoying person. He was proud at insulting the muslim community. His “free speech” was namecalling.
And then it caught up with him. Does that make him a saint? Does that make a martyr of free speech?
I don’t think so.

He was a fool and he met another fool. Such is the fate of fools.
[/quote]

Murder is the fate of people who say things you don’t like? That sounds pretty much like spreading hate and fear to me. Burn any good books lately?

The most disturbing post of the year for me.

hedo · May 31, 2005, 12:33pm

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
An even better analogy would be how the people, beding over backwards to protect the KKKs “right to march” fell over each other to boycot the Dixie Chicks.

Freedom of speech is fine, but somehow it’s even finer when the one speeking shares your opinion.

In Europe we believe it’s NOT ok to spread hate and fear.

I heard Van Gogh on the radio and saw him on tv a couple of times. A very anoying person. He was proud at insulting the muslim community. His “free speech” was namecalling.
And then it caught up with him. Does that make him a saint? Does that make a martyr of free speech?
I don’t think so.

He was a fool and he met another fool. Such is the fate of fools.

And to the people that would like to apply the hate speech laws to the koran: how about the bible? Read it recently?[/quote]

Europeans will ignore the threat that radical Islam presents until it overcomes them. They will shun those who speak out against it.

But not to worry. The can always call the US for help when they fail and are occupied. Might not come too quick this time.

JeffR · May 31, 2005, 12:50pm

reckless wrote:

Welcome!!!

I love Anti-American Europeans!!!

They make me glad.

Watch for me. I’m the guy wearing the United States flag, hat, shoes, and underwear.

“An even better analogy would be how the people, beding over backwards to protect the KKKs “right to march” fell over each other to boycot the Dixie Chicks.”

Sure, the aclu hates the Dixie Chicks.

You know just how conservative a bunch they are.

“Freedom of speech is fine, but somehow it’s even finer when the one speeking shares your opinion.”

Wrong. I enjoy when people disagree with me. I can test my arguments.

“In Europe we believe it’s NOT ok to spread hate and fear.”

Then why so many wars and massacres? Oh, I get it, you don’t insult people, you invade.

Very bad.

"I heard Van Gogh on the radio and saw him on tv a couple of times. A very anoying person. He was proud at insulting the muslim community. His “free speech” was namecalling.
And then it caught up with him. Does that make him a saint? Does that make a martyr of free speech?
I don’t think so.

He was a fool and he met another fool. Such is the fate of fools."

That is a totally despicable comment. I hope you have a partially obstructing right ureteral stone very soon.

“And to the people that would like to apply the hate speech laws to the koran: how about the bible? Read it recently?”

Well, well, well.

On second thought, I hope you and I meet. If you come out during the day, keep an eye out for me.

You won’t be able to miss me.

JeffR

Wreckless · May 31, 2005, 2:11pm

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Just because you have freedom of speech, it doesn’t meant that people who hear you don’t have the right to get pissed off. This is something the Dixie Chicks learned the hardway.
[/quote]

That’s what I meant.

“don’t suppress my free speach, but feel free to suppress any idea’s that I don’t share”.

That’s the kind of democracy every dictator loves.

Wreckless · May 31, 2005, 2:15pm

[quote]Cream wrote:
Murder is the fate of people who say things you don’t like? That sounds pretty much like spreading hate and fear to me. Burn any good books lately?

The most disturbing post of the year for me. [/quote]

That’s not what I said. He loved to sow hate and that’s what he reaped.

I didn’t say he had it coming, I said everybody saw it coming.

Let me ask you something, do you go out of your way to piss of your neighbour on a daily basis? What do you think would happen if you did?

Wreckless · May 31, 2005, 2:23pm

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Wrong. I enjoy when people disagree with me. I can test my arguments.
[/quote]
I’ll take you up on that. Let’s look what you have to offer here.

“And to the people that would like to apply the hate speech laws to the koran: how about the bible? Read it recently?”

Well, well, well.

On second thought, I hope you and I meet. If you come out during the day, keep an eye out for me.

You won’t be able to miss me.

JeffR
[/quote]
Oohhh, thinly desguised threats. Over the internet no less.
These are your arguments? Lemme guess, did you ever moon for rebuttle?

Sorry Jeff, I must say I’m not impressed by your “arguments”.

hedo · May 31, 2005, 2:32pm

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Cream wrote:
Murder is the fate of people who say things you don’t like? That sounds pretty much like spreading hate and fear to me. Burn any good books lately?

The most disturbing post of the year for me.

That’s not what I said. He loved to sow hate and that’s what he reaped.

I didn’t say he had it coming, I said everybody saw it coming.

Let me ask you something, do you go out of your way to piss of your neighbour on a daily basis? What do you think would happen if you did?[/quote]

My neighbor is not threatening to kill me if I don’t accept his religion or pay him a tax to live under his protection. Van Gogh’s neighbors were.