this really cracks me up.
first let me say that i don’t care about self defense one bit.
i haven’t been in a street fight since the 8th grade.
my endeavors in kickboxing/mt are just for sport. it could help me in a street fight but it doen’t make me a badass street fighter.
nhb fighters come real close to real street fighting.when someone says if eye gouging,head butting and biting would be allowed so and so would get his ass handed to him, it sounds so stupid.
how much training do you have to do to learn how to bite,eye gouge,and headbutt?
why would you pay someone to teach you that? a good stooges flick can teach you that.
and the guys you mention,with all the skill they may or may not have,they are missing one thing. the ultra conditioning that shamrock has.
and that my friends is one very important reason why combat althletes would do very well in street fights.especially against your usual bar room types.they go apeshit for about 45 to 60 sec. and then they’re spent,and the combat athlete is just fine.
oh yeah? well my dad can beat up your dad! come on, dion. why would frand not adapt to the fact that he himself is no longer limited by rules? you are an ass. he is a bad ass who could kick my butt up and down the street, and i would put my hard earned money on the fact that he could do it to a lot of guys. anything beyond that is PURE SPECULATION. get over it.
Dion, maybe its just me… but I think it would be hard to kick anybody’s ass that had a gun. Anybody else agree? A knife would be another story, but it would still be hard if they knew half of what they were doing. No weapons allowed, Ken Shamrock is a bad ass.
But thats just my opinion.
Ah, the age old debate of who can beat up who. I’m surprised we haven’t jumped into which art is the best? Something that I find quite interesting is that a lot of people (not just this forum)mention ‘real fights’ or ‘street fights’ and how someone like Frank Shamrock would go down if eye gouges, biting, etc. were allowed. Someone eariler mentioned that Frank would/could adapt to a situation. I agree. Really think about what you are saying when you say that a sport martial artist wouldn’t last in a street fight. That is the equivalent of saying that there is no way a baseball player could throw a football. I’m sure when I situation presents itself you don’t run rules through your head and no do it. Martial artists aren’t bound to some code of ethics that says we can’t hit you when your down or punch in the throat, etc. That’s just absurd to think that way.
As for matches between the greats like Paul Vunak and the others mentioned, who knows, anything can change at the blink of an eye. I’m not one to jump on this board and post my fighting resume to show some kind of credibility but I need to mention last weekend as and example. I fought my first bare knuckle full contact fight last weekend. The guy I fought first, first round was about even, the second round I felt disoriented and out of gas, it was the last 10 seconds of the round and I was about to lose something that I had been training for for the last several months. Well in those last ten seconds I was lucky enough to catch him with a knee and win by knockout, if that wouldn’t have happened I wouldn’t have advanced. It’s not always size, speed, experience, sometimes luck is involved, that even includes the pretend battles between the masters.
Mike Mahler, if you’re reading this, I would be interested to hear what type of cycle Josh used. Has he admitted to use yet?
Something I found quite interesting in this interview was how important Frank felt it was to minimize stress/damage to the body. I’m not sure he came out an said it but you can see by the fact that he leaves out deadlifts and squats out of his lifting routine that he’s into relatively low impact weights. At least one person mentioned Coach Davies may be a better sorce for info but I have to disagree - actually I don’t as I’ve never seen C. Davies’ mma workout but I think Frank has very specific reasons for his training choices.
In my experience doing heavy weight training while training for a mixed martial arts fight is extremely hard to do without heavy chemical assistance. I love doing squats but my lower back take 3-4 days to recuperate from them (light deads take 5 days). In that time I need to use my lower back for technique work and sparring every day, not too mention cardio work. In other words I don’t do squats. IMO people on this forum naturally tend towards lifting heavy weights as part of any routine as their experience usually shows that heavy lifts (especially compound lifts) yield better results in terms of muscle/strength growth. In the case of the mixed martial artist the focus of their activities are so much different (i.e. Frank rates strength as #4 on his list of important attributes) that a new perspective is needed. I for one, would be interested in an mixed martial arts training article that takes into account wear and tear as well as sports specific attributes. Anyone?
I’d also like to say that I doubt Vunak or Blauer or anyone else at the top of the video sales game cares if they can take frank Shamrock. They’re more concerned with getting a product out that the consumer can use effectively. Incidentally I’m sure Tony B. would lose to Frank in a fight - not because Tony can’t fight (he can I’m sure) but because Frank is a world class fighter with tons of experience while Tony doesn’t compete. That doesn’t mean Tony can’t beat the piss out of you or me though:).
I see this thread has gone to the who can kick who’s butt argument. It is pointless, but I think that Frank could handle himself in a situation. T those that keep bringing up eye gouging , biting and hair pulling, when is the last time you were in bar fight, a street fight, a self defense situation? Did you do any biting?Any eye gouging? More than likley it was more pushing, shoving, wild punches, and the a clinch, then rolling around on the floor till someone broke it up, Sounds like MMA match to me. The only time I have experienced biting is when I was trying to subdue a female shoplifter(not that females are the only ones that bite, but it is my only experience) she was out gunned and that was her last resort. As far as Strength not being important, I agree up to a point, superior technique can beat superior strength, but when technique is of equal quality, strength and size will come into play. It would not suprise me to find out that at the higher levels of competition, guy are using. It happens in every other pro sport why not MMA? As far as weight training being detrimental to the fight game, I disagree, it can be beneficial, but like any other type of training, if you over do it, it will not help you. For a fighter, 2 days a week, doing core lifts is probably plenty.
Im sorry if i offended anybody by what i said. I just didnt think anybody would really be offended by me saying that I think there is a difference between street fighting and mma. Anyway if you all think im some street fighter that just throws wild punches and fights sloppy …im not. I compete in mma. I train with chuck liddell in CA and John Lewis in LV. I had the opportunity to train with Paul Vunak a while ago and I went in there thinking that Ill do good against Paul. Paul is very fast and efficient we never sparred but if we would have there would be no doubt in my mind he would have taken me out. Everybody that is doubting Pauls ability i suggest you train with him befor you do.
ko, what would you suggest in my case? Almost all the lower body compound movements are out (i.e. squats and deads) due to a severe restriction in training time - if I do the lifts I can’t train mma properly. I still do work for my lower back - reverse hyper extensions in this case - and my legs but I find heavy lifting definitely taxes my joints a lot more. Since strength does play an important role I continue to lift but have concentrated more on the typical bodybuilder rep ranges (10-12 reps, 4 sets) so as to avoid injury. The only area where I feel comfortable lifting my max is when I’m doing pull-ups/chins. Of course 4 sets of 10 is still a bit beyond my max for wide grip anyways so the point is moot. Do you think I’m making an error in training or perhaps I’m just listening to my body well. Remember my focus is to train to fight - not necassarily look like I can fight:).
If you are having lower back issues, it could be your form, or overtraining,.If you are sure that that is not the case, then it could be that you have developed muscle imbalances, I would reccomend some serious stretching, and because of my recent experience, ART, and chiropractic work, might be in order.
Another thing, squats, deads, the big power lifts, are perfect for somone who does not have a lot of time to train. Heavy weights, low reps. Get in and get out.
ko, Thanks. I agree that the big lifts are perfect for someone who has time constraints. I should find the time and look for an ART practicioner in my area. I have tried the Chiro. and it’s helped almost as much as the physio. Both have told me not to squat again even though both think it’s a great exercise. What I have been trying to do is find exercizes that do roughly the same thing without the strain on the joints. I.e. instead of squats I’ve recently started trying hip belt squats. I’m just not experienced enough to know if what I’m doing is smart. I suppose I’ll just keep reading:).
Dion Lackner,
You are very confused son. Any decent MMA fighter would hand you your lunch. Knifes? How many times in your training do you really have people trying to stab you with a real knife? Um, zero. Frank is a great kick boxer as well as grappler. I love when Karate guys really believe the bull shit they are taught. Pride and UFC type events are the only way to test yourself these days. If Karate guys would kill frank in the street how come every karate guy has got the shit kicked out of him in the octagon? Get back to your katas, fool. Frank is the man.
My ART practioner works with athletes (he is the IRONMAN team physician)so he knows his stuff. He has not told to quit lifting, but rather to lighten the weights and really concentrate on my form, and stretching. I think that this the first time that a doctor has not told me to quit squatting. I highly reccomend finding somone who works with athletes. I am seeing great results, and my range of motion has greatly improved. The sad thing is hat I had no idea that my range of motion was so bad. till after my first session, a real eye opener.
ko, thanks again. I had looked for an ART practicioner a while ago but he specialized in golfers so I figured he wouldn’t be the one for me. I’ll have to look again.
Actually, one who speializes in golfers would be good for you. Think about what goes into having a good golf swing, and then think about what goes into being a fighter. The key is to have that effortless swing, perfect technique. In order to do that you hve to be loose from head to toe, good range of motion. Other wise you cannot make that smooth transference of power. Same thing with a punch, throw or kick. I think you should give shot.
ko, you are a wise man. It is all in the hips:). I’ll try to find this guy again.
some people are stupid. frank shamrock is a bad ass there’s no doubt about that. i bet he would whip anybody’s ass posting to this thing and to compare MMA to a street fight where people are using knives is ridiculous. all i’m saying is that you can’t deny that the guy is tough and good at what he does.
octagon gas soft mats made for grapplers.doubt theyd wanna be on ground in a parking lot.afc events are made for grapplers. strikers cant ever set the feet.besides what good strikers enter these things? noone because no money in it.its easier to hit someone than take down think about the distance required. even many of these ufc things end in seconds with a punch and no take down cause i guess a few can punch too.
Joe, Check out the UCC events if your in Canada. They’re mats are the hardest I’ve ever felt - I’ve got one friend who TKO’ed himself by posting on his head. The soft mats help the striker too - how many people could stand a hard throw onto a solid surface?
BTW there are some great strikers who have entered mma - the succesful ones have seriously crosstrained - just like any groundfighter must now do. Maurice Smith (former K-1 competitor) comes to mind as the original striker who showed that you need both grappling and striking by beating up Mark Coleman (the heavy favourite in the match due to his wrestling skills). There are no longer striker vs grappler matches as everyone at the top crosstrains in everything (i.e. wrestling, bjj, judo, muay thai, boxing).
You can set your feet on a mat, in fact it is even easier because your feet sink in. I know because my old Tae Kwon Do school practiced in a wrestling room. The only thing that mats limit is a spinning kick, and no one is going to be crazy enough to try to throw one of those.Vitor Belfort is an excellent striker,so was Don Frye.