Four Washington State Police Officers Gunned Down

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass? [/quote]

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.[/quote]

What does this have to do with the 4 officers killed by some child molesting psycho?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.[/quote]

Who said this is worse than a police officers murdering someone in cold blood? I didn’t that’s for sure. Who is worshiping the state? I have respect for those willing to put their lives on the line for the good of others…call me crazy I guess.

Yeah the uniform they wear is a costume same as the ones worn on Halloween. Your logic just overwhelms me. Once again I didn’t say their life is worth more than others, but I sure as shit think it’s worth at least the same don’t you??

I seriously doubt most police officers want to or even think they are “Billy Badasses”. I imagine most just want to put food on the table same as you and I.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a follower of the State or Fed, but simply having respect for those who lost their lives and for those that had their fathers, husbands, and sons taken from them because some piece of crap wanted to hurt someone. The same piece of crap that has probably never contributed one thing to society ever in his worthless existence.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.

Who said this is worse than a police officers murdering someone in cold blood? I didn’t that’s for sure. Who is worshiping the state? I have respect for those willing to put their lives on the line for the good of others…call me crazy I guess.

Yeah the uniform they wear is a costume same as the ones worn on Halloween. Your logic just overwhelms me. Once again I didn’t say their life is worth more than others, but I sure as shit think it’s worth at least the same don’t you??

I seriously doubt most police officers want to or even think they are “Billy Badasses”. I imagine most just want to put food on the table same as you and I.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a follower of the State or Fed, but simply having respect for those who lost their lives and for those that had their fathers, husbands, and sons taken from them because some piece of crap wanted to hurt someone. The same piece of crap that has probably never contributed one thing to society ever in his worthless existence.
[/quote]

He’s just silly, don’t take him to seriously. However, this is an exercise in tactical awareness. Jeff Cooper was one of the first to talk about states of awareness adndhow one should pay attention.

In public, you should always be in yellow, relaxed state of awareness. I don’t feel like going into a whole big lecture here, but paying attention to your surroundings is of paramount importance when you are a police officer.

You never know when some crazy will target you.

As for the fuss made over some dead cops. They protect us. They are more of a target. And the type of person who will kill a cop is the kind that will kill anyone.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.

Who said this is worse than a police officers murdering someone in cold blood? I didn’t that’s for sure. Who is worshiping the state? I have respect for those willing to put their lives on the line for the good of others…call me crazy I guess.
[/quote]

Cops do not put their life on the line for anyone and to believe that shows how much of the koolaid you’ve drunk.

The people who put their lives on the line that deserve our respect are the smoke jumpers who protect people’s property from burning to the ground; oil rig workers who deliver us energy; deep sea fishermen who bring us creepy-crawlies from the deep ocean bottom to sup on; construction workers who work 100s of stories off the ground producing the capital that drives the engine of the world. These are people who put their life on the line to contribute to society. Cops do not. They mostly harass millions of nonviolent people on a daily basis just because they can.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Cops do not put their life on the line for anyone and to believe that shows how much of the koolaid you’ve drunk.

[/quote]

If police officers don’t put their lives on the line why were 4 officers just recently killed? You may have read about it.

I love the koolaide comment very original.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.

Who said this is worse than a police officers murdering someone in cold blood? I didn’t that’s for sure. Who is worshiping the state? I have respect for those willing to put their lives on the line for the good of others…call me crazy I guess.

Cops do not put their life on the line for anyone and to believe that shows how much of the koolaid you’ve drunk.

The people who put their lives on the line that deserve our respect are the smoke jumpers who protect people’s property from burning to the ground; oil rig workers who deliver us energy; deep sea fishermen who bring us creepy-crawlies from the deep ocean bottom to sup on; construction workers who work 100s of stories off the ground producing the capital that drives the engine of the world. These are people who put their life on the line to contribute to society. Cops do not. They mostly harass millions of nonviolent people on a daily basis just because they can.[/quote]

I have respect for any man or woman that works to pay their bills and feed their families. I do not; however, respect those that steal, kill, cheat, etc… because they are to lazy to get a real job and guess what, we have these people called police officers to stop those that steal, cheat, murder, etc…and they should be respected as well.

Here’s a question for you. If a known murderer lived 2 doors down from you and a police force didn’t exist would you be willing to stop him if there were no legal ramifications what so ever?

[quote]tom63 wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
While I don’t like violence I do not weep their death. Play with fire and get burned.

You’re talking about 4 police officers gunned down in cold blood like all they lost was a game of hot potato. Are you really that much of an ass?

I don’t care that they were coppers. How is it any worse than all the cops who have murdered other HUMAN BEINGS “in cold blood” throughout the history of law enforcement? You might fall down on your knees and worship at the alter of the State but I don’t.

Just because they get to wear costumes and carry loaded weapons doesn’t give them any greater sanctity of life than the rest of us.

You wanna play Billy Badass for your career? Then prepare to become a target.

Who said this is worse than a police officers murdering someone in cold blood? I didn’t that’s for sure. Who is worshiping the state? I have respect for those willing to put their lives on the line for the good of others…call me crazy I guess.

Yeah the uniform they wear is a costume same as the ones worn on Halloween. Your logic just overwhelms me. Once again I didn’t say their life is worth more than others, but I sure as shit think it’s worth at least the same don’t you??

I seriously doubt most police officers want to or even think they are “Billy Badasses”. I imagine most just want to put food on the table same as you and I.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a follower of the State or Fed, but simply having respect for those who lost their lives and for those that had their fathers, husbands, and sons taken from them because some piece of crap wanted to hurt someone. The same piece of crap that has probably never contributed one thing to society ever in his worthless existence.

He’s just silly, don’t take him to seriously. However, this is an exercise in tactical awareness. Jeff Cooper was one of the first to talk about states of awareness adndhow one should pay attention.

In public, you should always be in yellow, relaxed state of awareness. I don’t feel like going into a whole big lecture here, but paying attention to your surroundings is of paramount importance when you are a police officer.

You never know when some crazy will target you.

As for the fuss made over some dead cops. They protect us. They are more of a target. And the type of person who will kill a cop is the kind that will kill anyone.[/quote]

Yeah constantly looking around when I’m out and really trying to mind my surroundings is one of those things I really picked up in the military. Still I can’t imagine going through life being a target like some police officers say for example Baltimore city cops are.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
It’s been awhile gents. Law school is keeping me entirely too busy, but this is pretty big news up in my neck of the woods so I figure I’d add my two cents.

Everyone knows I’m not a big fan of cops, but this sure as hell is no way for them to go out. Their death was sad and unneccesary. But I’ve several observations come from it. I’m not going to jump into the hero worship bit, but I find their death sad in a way that anyone’s would be. You go way too far Lifty.

1: Why is the death of a cop worse than that of a citizen in the news? Particularly in an instance such as this, I’d put them at pretty much the same footing.

2: After the murder of these cops I’m watching the video of the area. Why do you need SWAT vans with officers hanging off it and guys in Multicam with sniper rifles? This was one guy with a pistol. I understand cordoning off the area, but this seems like a good bit of overkill.

This situation is particularly alarming to me. Are we desensitizing our populace to the militarization of the police? Are there a bunch of guys sitting around waiting for something to do? What gives? My personal presumption (and that’s all it is) is that as soon as you get something sexy, everyone and their grandma is looking to get to the scene in the hopes they can see some action. I’m sympathetic to the feeling, but duty above all guys.

Then again, if it is necessary, kudos to them. Watching that I’m glad I’m not a SWAT officer. I’d hate to sit around all day knowing damn well that there’s no good reason for it.

3: Can we teach our cops to be a little more professional and safety minded with their weapons? I’m sick of watching guys swinging their AR’s around carrying them by their pistol grips. Hell, if I saw some hillbilly doing that at the range I’d ask him to either unfuck himself or I’d get the hell away from the unsafe bastard.

4: How dangerous is being a cop? I’m not one and I’m not trying to be disrespecful. Yet they mentioned on the news that Spokane, which is a shithole I’d never go into unarmed, last had a cop killed there on duty 33 years ago. We lost a good cop in my area a few years back in the line of duty, but he was the only guy in 110 years here to die that way. I’ve heard many cops on this board talk about doing what they do because of how dangerous the job is and how they just want to make it home at night. Granted this is a generally low crime area and it doesn’t take into account a cop getting a broken jaw or something but still. It seems to me that being a cop is a good deal safer than being a 100-lb girl.

Either way, it’s an unfortunate event. I’d love a smaller police force, but this isn’t the way to do it. I won’t revel in their deaths. Anyshit, back to lawsmithing.[/quote]

Been a long time Mike. Hope things are good. That said, I have to take umbrage with a few things.

  1. Nobody is saying the death of a cop is any worse than any other citizen’s. There are however, a good number of people left in this country who recognize the police as a key element of the line between civility and savagery, despite what a few of the pseudo-anarchist hacks on here think. Some even still revere the police for it, although I recognize that as a quasi-romantic notion.

  2. Please stop with the militarization nonsense. Every critical incident has caused an evolution of police tactics. Assault weapons, hard body armor, helmets, flashbangs and military tactics simply work better in combating violent people. Barney Fife does not. I’ve read quite a bit of Radley Balco’s writings, and he misses the boat with the same point. He makes too much of the “trappings”, for lack of a better term, of modern police work. I can’t see complaining about the level of resources employed to catch this guy…although it is interesting that it came down to a lone patrol officer finishing the job.

3.Agreed. Part of my mission has been to fix this stuff in my neck of the woods as I am assigned part time to a tactics training unit. The crazy stuff you see is the result of bad training and bad selection. Period. The physical, psychological and philosophical requirements of a true master cop is a very rare thing and the desire to put asses in seats so to speak has lead to a lot of our problems.

4.Hmmm. Well, here are a few observations…

a.The things that you often bemoan in terms of militarization are a large part of what makes law enforcement a much safer profession than it used to be.
b.Next to no jobs will have you spending every day of your career as a target simply because of the clothes you are wearing, even if the chance of something lethal happening to you is low.
c.Deadly violence is one of the more remote possibilities for ending a police career. I don’t know anyone who has been killed in a violent confrontation. Accidental deaths and serious injuries, primarily due to working on the highways in every kind of fubar situation you can imagine? I personally know of plenty of those. Don’t forget that assaults and physical confrontations rarely make any headlines whatsoever. Nearly every cop has a good number of those under their belt if they work near any type of population center. How many jobs can say that?

 Lastly, I'm not sure what you meant by this: "I've heard many cops on this board talk about doing what they do because of how dangerous the job is and how they just want to make it home at night."  I would be interested in clarification.

You’re right. We need fewer, but better selected, better trained cops. That is not really a discussion that needs to be had in light of what this thread was about though.

Regardless, I appreciate the dignity and reasonableness that you bring to these topics, even though you are no fan of my profession. Others should follow your lead.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If police officers don’t put their lives on the line why were 4 officers just recently killed? You may have read about it.
[/quote]

They were killed at a coffee shop!!

Were they guarding the “special” brew?

Give me a break.

Actually, if you could read, you would know they were not guarding anything. They were preparing for their shift, which I’ll explain for you since you seem to be a simpleton. They got up probably took a shower, but I do not want to speak for the personal habits of someone I don’t know. They got dressed and drove to the coffee shop. Where they probably ordered something to drink.

They probably met there regularly to discuss differing topics, sort of a premission brief for the day. This is called preparing for the day, which is what the article said they were doing. So, they were not guarding the special brew.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS maybe someday we will meet. You may kick my butt, however you should bring a lunch, it will be a long conversation.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
If police officers don’t put their lives on the line why were 4 officers just recently killed? You may have read about it.

They were killed at a coffee shop!!

Were they guarding the “special” brew?

Give me a break.[/quote]

Straight from the article.

“The gunman burst into the coffee house Sunday morning and opened fire on the officers as they sat working on their laptops, killing the three men and one woman in what Troyer described as a targeted ambush.”

Targeted ambush stands out to me. Had they not be police officers they would probably not have been targeted by the killer.

The location is irrelevant.

Edit: I suppose you’re just going to ignore my question then?

“Here’s a question for you. If a known murderer lived 2 doors down from you and a police force didn’t exist would you be willing to stop him if there were no legal ramifications what so ever?”

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

“Here’s a question for you. If a known murderer lived 2 doors down from you and a police force didn’t exist would you be willing to stop him if there were no legal ramifications what so ever?” [/quote]

He wouldn’t and neither would most people. There is no “duty to act”. Aside from that, the majority of humanity runs from those type of things, considering themselves lucky it wasn’t them targeted.

Like I said in an earlier post, the only people I have seen consistently act to help in a crisis had prior training and experience in dealing with stressful circumstances(firefighters, military etc.) That is the whole idea with training people specifically to do those things and then imposing a duty on them to follow through.

That is precisely where the anarchist’s fantasy-land starts to fall apart.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:

“Here’s a question for you. If a known murderer lived 2 doors down from you and a police force didn’t exist would you be willing to stop him if there were no legal ramifications what so ever?”

He wouldn’t and neither would most people. There is no “duty to act”. Aside from that, the majority of humanity runs from those type of things, considering themselves lucky it wasn’t them targeted.

Like I said in an earlier post, the only people I have seen consistently act to help in a crisis had prior training and experience in dealing with stressful circumstances(firefighters, military etc.) That is the whole idea with training people specifically to do those things and then imposing a duty on them to follow through.

That is precisely where the anarchist’s fantasy-land starts to fall apart.
[/quote]

That is pretty much where I was headed with the question.

  1. Chances are you wouldn’t do anything unless trained to do so, or
  2. You would band together with like minded people for the betterment of the group (society) to stop a killer. I would consider this a police force.

If we did away with every aspect of our society and entered an anarchic state we would over time just create another society with similar rules as we have today. It would be very difficult or impossible to thrive the way we do without a relatively stable society.

[quote]JD430 wrote:

Been a long time Mike. Hope things are good. That said, I have to take umbrage with a few things.

  1. Nobody is saying the death of a cop is any worse than any other citizen’s. There are however, a good number of people left in this country who recognize the police as a key element of the line between civility and savagery, despite what a few of the pseudo-anarchist hacks on here think. Some even still revere the police for it, although I recognize that as a quasi-romantic notion.

  2. Please stop with the militarization nonsense. Every critical incident has caused an evolution of police tactics. Assault weapons, hard body armor, helmets, flashbangs and military tactics simply work better in combating violent people. Barney Fife does not. I’ve read quite a bit of Radley Balco’s writings, and he misses the boat with the same point. He makes too much of the “trappings”, for lack of a better term, of modern police work. I can’t see complaining about the level of resources employed to catch this guy…although it is interesting that it came down to a lone patrol officer finishing the job. [/quote]

My concern with the militarization of police is less that it’s an intentional conspiracy and more that there are unintended consequences. I’m all for hooking you guys up with ARs and body armor and the like. One need only watch the LA bank shootout again to understand why. I just don’t see the need for guys in masks and multicam crawling all over the area. I think we’re setting ourselves up for trouble in the future. Imagine had these cops not just been beat cops, but rather a Lon Horiuchi type killed by (what would be in this case) an upstanding citizen here in north Idaho. I see all the snipers, SWAT and guys carrying AR’s around for those dead cops and see a waste of resources. However had we had that many people come out to protect a murderer like Horiuchi you would have one very well armed and very pissed off community.

Take this for how it is intended. I have no basic beef with arming cops well. I am mostly alarmed by having the government better armed than the populace as a whole. I want to see cops as outgunned heroes, if that means more cops die so be it, if that’s the price we must pay to keep the balance of power in the hands of the people over the government. We don’t draft cops; you know what you’re getting into when you sign up.

Understand, this attitude carries over to my military career as well. I’d rather send in Marine infantry to do a job instead of arty, JDAMs from 30,000 ft and arty in order to save civilians, even though more Marines would die in the process. We’re the good guys. There’s a heavy price to pay for that distinction.[quote]

4.Hmmm. Well, here are a few observations…

a.The things that you often bemoan in terms of militarization are a large part of what makes law enforcement a much safer profession than it used to be.[/quote]

Agreed, and so long as we can keep the balance of power in the hands of the people over the gov’t, I say we keep you guys as well armed as possible.[quote]
b.Next to no jobs will have you spending every day of your career as a target simply because of the clothes you are wearing, even if the chance of something lethal happening to you is low.[/quote]

Couldn’t the same thing be said of a hot chick in a skirt?

Fair statements all. As I said initially, this doesn’t count broken bones and such. Being a cop is a dangerous job. But, I hate to agree with Lifty on something, but there are tons of dangerous jobs that help us out. I was a utility worker for a year and almost got run over lots of times. Marking lines on the highway always scared me. But I don’t expect kudos for it. Nor for my military service (as I’ve said, the hard part was the leaving). I trust many cops don’t either, but I fear that society showers the military and police with too much love and unintended consequences will result.

I recall in a thread some time ago as I mentioned my own negative run-ins with the police a few guys (I think snipeout was one, forgive me if I’m wrong snipe) saying something along the lines of[paraphrasing], “Well that cop had to do that because his going home to his family at night is more important than your rights.” My only contention is that until you draft police officers, that statement doesn’t fly. I’m not convinced that 1) being a cop is so incredibly dangerous as to allow so cavalier an attitude and 2) duty is a bitch. I know. But it’s the performance of duty that makes us the good guys.

Agreed. I don’t think we can ever stay on thread though. Either way, I trust guys like you take this hit as hard as I do when I hear a Marine died. I’ll throw a Sam Adams back for them.

mike

Mike,

I don’t have this quote thing down so bear with me.

Yours is an interesting perspective, and I agree with much of your thoughts.

I do want to point out that the police are not better armed than the citizenry in most states. Perhaps some of us have better access to automatic weapons, but you can get those in most states if you jump through the ATF hoops and have the money. Otherwise, you can buy military pattern rifles, high capacity magazines, body armor, .50 cal rifles and so on almost anywhere in the country. Even the most oppressive regimes, in CA or NJ for example, still allow their subjects to possess semi-automatic center fire rifles.

There is not a real disparity in the armament of the police and US citizens and that is as it should be.

As a side note, did you see that the FBI just purchased a number of 20mm rifles? I must admit, I raised an eyebrow at that.

I can’t, under any circumstances, agree that the police should purposely be restricted in their weaponry or equipment well under the average citizen. Who would do the job? Not anybody who knew what they were doing, and we have enough of a problem in that department already.

Also, consider this. Posse Comitatus is nothing but words written on paper. Our modern crop of mandarins has shown a willingness to disregard the framework of our country. Following your reasoning, you can make an argument for restricting the firepower of the military as well, as they could very well step in for the police if things ever got bad enough. Either that, or the citizenry should be allowed free access to true military hardware well beyond small arms. Part of me says that should be the case but I haven’t ever completely decided if that is a good idea or not.

Try as I might, I don’t know how to counter the “hot chicks in short skirts are in as much danger as uniformed police” argument. There is not really statistics on that subject as far as I know. I guess both can be considered at risk. Hell, we’re all at risk. Keep your powder dry.

A good cop, like a good soldier, should not expect to be showered with admiration by society. If history is an example, the warrior class was often looked down upon as a necessary evil.

I don’t find it an accident however, that our society, despite the mess that it is in its present form, idolized the two groups. Certainly, this was the case in the last century…witness the heroes in nearly every Hollywood production before the age of cynicism. The way I view it, the American public looked at the GI or the flatfoot as the ultimate extension of American values…order, fairness and freedom. They also realized that the line between barbarism and the high point in human society that we had reached was the warrior class. Society has to make that determination…not the guys in the trenches. The fondness for fallen uniformed personnel is not something created by members of those services…it is organic from the more decent segments of society. Just an observation.

As to your last point about the disregard of rights for officer safety, let me say this. I cannot recall an instance where I personally felt I had to go outside the bounds of civil rights in order to remain safe. This all hinges on the ability of an officer and how well they know their job. I can say that the guys I have seen who try to knowingly weasel their way around a person’s rights are lesser cops and should not be employed in the profession. “Officer safety” can become an excuse to these guys but they usually don’t have a clue what the term really means. If someone has an example to counter this, please feel free.

I agree with your statement about duty wholeheartedly.