I’ve built a really decent physique (not quite in the bodybuilder category, but very muscular) over the years by alot of really hard work and diet. I guess this has been a long and difficult road because of very low Test levels – 194 serum test (normal = 241-827) and 5.8 Free (normal = 6.8 - 21.5) before I started HRT.
I recently found an HRT doc that is very willing, it seems, to give me as much Test-cyip as necessary to get the levels to the high end or more. On the last visit, she said “just wait to you get to 1000 on the Serum test”. After about a month, we are now up to 400mg Test-c about every 10 days. I have gained a few pounds, strength is improved, but what has amazed me is my recovery time from lifting. I feel like I can lift heavy every day.
My question: Should I have any concerns with just keeping my test levels at the high end of the normal range or a bit more for an extended period – like foreever? She didnt measure the E2 levels, so I dont know where this stands. And finally, is it possible to get some bodybuilder-like gains if I stay just above the normal end of the test range?
[quote]Tenp250 wrote:
I’ve built a really decent physique (not quite in the bodybuilder category, but very muscular) over the years by alot of really hard work and diet. I guess this has been a long and difficult road because of very low Test levels – 194 serum test (normal = 241-827) and 5.8 Free (normal = 6.8 - 21.5) before I started HRT. I recently found an HRT doc that is very willing, it seems, to give me as much Test-cyip as necessary to get the levels to the high end or more. On the last visit, she said “just wait to you get to 1000 on the Serum test”. After about a month, we are now up to 400mg Test-c about every 10 days. I have gained a few pounds, strength is improved, but what has amazed me is my recovery time from lifting. I feel like I can lift heavy every day.
My question: Should I have any concerns with just keeping my test levels at the high end of the normal range or a bit more for an extended period – like foreever? She didnt measure the E2 levels, so I dont know where this stands. And finally, is it possible to get some bodybuilder-like gains if I stay just above the normal end of the test range?
Your body will react by dropping SHBG, which is a defense mechanism that the body uses to dump extra testosterone, to keep from poisoning itself.
Side effects from low SHBG will be what I like to call a hyperexcreter.
You will use up what T is being slowly released from the ester quickly. Expect evening drowsiness and fatigue to kick in around 60 days on this protocol.
Low SHBG also leads to psychological issues, such as depression and lethargy.
Also, expect estradiol to rise significantly. This can lead to prostate swelling, gyno, water retention, and basically a whole host of problems.
I’ve been to her 4 times since January 5th. Two doses at 200mg, one at 300, and the last at 400. She said she wants to get me up to the high end of normal total test and then adjust the doses to keep me there. I checked the labs –
Hemoglobin is at 14.5 and Hematocrit is at 42.0 before we started - at the low end of the normal ranges. I assume she needs to prescribe the anti-estrogen? If I monitor and deal with the estrogen issue and the Hemoblobin/Hematocrit stays below the maximum, do you guys think this is worth it and is there enough bodybuilding upside?
Some solid advice here,
With TRT you have to consider your health as your number 1 priority.
Such a high TRT dose may be better split up into smaller shots if possible, definitely look to get an AI and monitor your bloodwork regularly for E2, and hematocrit.
The last thing that you want is to start on TRT, feel great for a while and then have to have it removed due to elevated Hematocrit. It would be wise to monitor your cholesterol too with such a dose.
Definitely donate blood as often as is possible to keep hemocrit and RBC’s in check.
Large T doses have a habit of driving E2 out of control high, so smaller, more often is better.
An AI is most likely in your future, and it help to keep the T Free and Bio Availble too.
Why have access to all that T, and not be able to “use it”?
What do you guys hink about the muscle building potential of staying at the very high end of normal for an extended period of time - assuming E2 is under control?
All things being equal, the more T you have the muscle you should be able to build. As long as E2 and SHBG are under control, (it’s not all about E2) and your diet is right, you should be able to make great gains in the gym.
Tenp,
As long as you train and eat progressively you will make great gains.
I have personally gained 20lbs (lean) since being on TRT. I run 100mg T, HCG @ 250iu EOD and 0.25 arimidex EOD. Prior to my TRT I was very emaciated, flabby and lost a huge amount of muscle over a 2 year period, even while consistently training hard and eating well (a psychologically painful experience).
So, although I am regaining muscle that I once had, I would not have been able to gain it without the TRT.
Provide your body with the nutrients and the stimuli to grow muscle, and the presence of high-normal T will provide you with the workforce to achieve it.
[quote]Tenp250 wrote:
What do you guys hink about the muscle building potential of staying at the very high end of normal for an extended period of time - assuming E2 is under control? [/quote]
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
She MUST factor in estrogen and its control or you are heading for a world of hurt.
Also, your red blood cell count (hematocrit) will probably go up too, increasing your blood pressure and increasing your risk of stroke.
BBB
This latter happened to me (20 hemaglobin, 18 max; hematocrit 56.5%, max 50%). So, I’m off HRT.
Why didn’t you just give blood?
BBB[/quote]
They won’t take it here, if you’re out of range.
I went to a hematologist, who did take a pint. She wanted to take a pint every week until the numbers came down. I decided it wasn’t worth it. Once a month, fine, but once a week? HRT also didn’t do much for me, after the first couple of weeks. When I changed something, I’d get a mild boost but then nothing noticeable.
[quote]Tenp250 wrote:
I’ve been to her 4 times since January 5th. Two doses at 200mg, one at 300, and the last at 400. She said she wants to get me up to the high end of normal total test and then adjust the doses to keep me there. I checked the labs –
Hemoglobin is at 14.5 and Hematocrit is at 42.0 before we started - at the low end of the normal ranges. I assume she needs to prescribe the anti-estrogen? If I monitor and deal with the estrogen issue and the Hemoblobin/Hematocrit stays below the maximum, do you guys think this is worth it and is there enough bodybuilding upside?
Thanks[/quote]
If she’s prescribing a single dose over 200mg and not watching your estradiol, then she does not know what she’s doing, and you might get gyno. You should not need more than 200mg per week to get you to the top of the range. How frequently are these injections?
Once weekly should be the least frequent. That still could give you an aromatized E2 bump mid week, which is why many of us divide the doses and inject every 2 or 3 days.
You must get Estradiol checked. Ask her what she knows about Arimidex and it’s function as an aromatase inhibitor. She can prescribe it for you for “off-label” use as an aromatase inhibitor.
With high doses of T, you likely will have a very high hematocrit, so the suggestion to donate blood every 8 weeks is a good one.
I went back to the doc this week. She gave me another 400 of test and said she whould start monitoring estrogen next time she did blood work. Said she would keep the estrogen in check. She also said we would disuss adding HGH to the mix in the future. What do you guys think about doing test and HGH together? BTW, I have gone from 232 to 244 in about 6 weeks since I started this – feels and looks like lean mass.
Yes bigdawg, 100mg a week split into 2 doses of 50mg.
This brings me into high normal. The gains I have experienced since doing so have been fantastic and are really what I needed physically and psychologically too.
Although not where I wish to be yet, it is refreshing to have productive training sessions, an improved physique and a much improved quality of life.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
Dave Rogerson wrote:
Tenp,
As long as you train and eat progressively you will make great gains.
I have personally gained 20lbs (lean) since being on TRT. I run 100mg T…
Is your Dr shooting you with 400mg a week? If so that’s nuts. That’s a cycle not TRT. 200mg a week is way to much let alone 400mg. Keep your free T in the upper 1/3 of normal and that’s plenty good. You’re going to have an E2 disaster with the amount of T you’re running. You’ll still make great gains in the upper 1/3 of normal they just come a little slower.
I keep my labs in check and don’t do anything dramatic and I gained 23 pounds in 7 months. Most would think my workouts are a joke yet I look like I live in the gym.