Form Critique: No-Lockout Squatting

infinite_shore · February 23, 2014, 4:42pm

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Claudan wrote:
Why is no one out-raged about this set? [/quote]

I don’t feel like that will make him or I bigger or stronger.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. I think the chances that one can help someone as delusional as the OP is incredibly low no matter how you phrase it. However, sometimes it takes an emotional beating to wake them up. A gentle nudge in the right direction just won’t do it, since it might imply that he isn’t THAT far off, which couldn’t be more wrong.

BrickHead · February 23, 2014, 5:21pm

The weight’s too damn heavy, I believe. I have only glossed over some posts here, but if I remember correctly some have said your lower back is a culprit in your form. But so is your upper back and your hams, which leads me to believe the weight is too damn heavy for what you want to do. The squat is a bit high as well, but I know some bodybuilders just like squatting that way. Lower the weight and tighten your form.

DoingWork421 · February 23, 2014, 5:57pm

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
The weight’s too damn heavy, I believe. I have only glossed over some posts here, but if I remember correctly some have said your lower back is a culprit in your form. But so is your upper back and your hams, which leads me to believe the weight is too damn heavy for what you want to do. The squat is a bit high as well, but I know some bodybuilders just like squatting that way. Lower the weight and tighten your form. [/quote]

Well, again (and I should have been more clear in the OP instead of in a subsequent post), that is not my “working weight” when doing rep work. It’s a weight that I typically do in the lower rep ranges for working sets. But because I typically do my higher rep sets with lower weight (as noted above, this week was 40 lighter), I typically have times where I try to do my low rep weight for high reps. Because ultimately I would like to do that weight for high reps, and I think it helps in pointing to where I need to focus to improve (here, maintaining back integrity).

The main reason I posted the video was that in reviewing the session, the set looked bad enough that I figured I could use the advice (I hadn’t previously videoed those sets). Up to around this point, my low back always seemed to keep up with my lower body, but here when I got in the “rep mode” my back immediately caved and everything else went to hell. I had similar issues with back integrity when I got to the 2x bodyweight mark with deadlift, and it appears squatting–at least for reps and perhaps in general–is much the same.

I knew I would get some noise from folks like infinite of the “you suck” variety but that I would also get other, useful, info from those like thePwnisher and such. In that respect, the thread achieved its purpose. As to the “outraged” poster above and folks like infinite, I suppose I would just say that I don’t really understand the purpose of those messages, at least amongst adults. I can see the “slap in the face is needed” mentality helping a high schooler or something, but I dunno–I don’t really see its purpose here unless the person comes in boasting or something like that.

Anyways, I’m a patient guy/in it for the long haul and will just keep working at it. I’m sure I’ll figure the whole thing out someday :). All criticisms are fair: as I said, I did not come into this thread with “look at how awesome I am” in mind. I wouldn’t have an interest in such a thread even if I were worth one. So, we’ll see. Thanks, all.

LoRez · February 23, 2014, 5:59pm

Any chance you could put up a video doing the same thing with about 50-60% of that on the bar?

T3hPwnisher · February 23, 2014, 6:10pm

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Claudan wrote:
Why is no one out-raged about this set? [/quote]

I don’t feel like that will make him or I bigger or stronger.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. I think the chances that one can help someone as delusional as the OP is incredibly low no matter how you phrase it. However, sometimes it takes an emotional beating to wake them up. A gentle nudge in the right direction just won’t do it, since it might imply that he isn’t THAT far off, which couldn’t be more wrong.

[/quote]

We will have to agree to disagree.

DoingWork421 · February 23, 2014, 6:13pm

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Any chance you could put up a video doing the same thing with about 50-60% of that on the bar?[/quote]

I usually do legs on Saturdays, so I’ll try to update this thread next week if I can. Hawthorne effect notwithstanding.

infinite_shore · February 23, 2014, 6:25pm

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Well, again (and I should have been more clear in the OP instead of in a subsequent post), that is not my “working weight” when doing rep work. It’s a weight that I typically do in the lower rep ranges for working sets. But because I typically do my higher rep sets with lower weight (as noted above, this week was 40 lighter), I typically have times where I try to do my low rep weight for high reps. Because ultimately I would like to do that weight for high reps, and I think it helps in pointing to where I need to focus to improve (here, maintaining back integrity).

The main reason I posted the video was that in reviewing the session, the set looked bad enough that I figured I could use the advice (I hadn’t previously videoed those sets). Up to around this point, my low back always seemed to keep up with my lower body, but here when I got in the “rep mode” my back immediately caved and everything else went to hell. I had similar issues with back integrity when I got to the 2x bodyweight mark with deadlift, and it appears squatting–at least for reps and perhaps in general–is much the same.

I knew I would get some noise from folks like infinite of the “you suck” variety but that I would also get other, useful, info from those like thePwnisher and such. In that respect, the thread achieved its purpose. As to the “outraged” poster above and folks like infinite, I suppose I would just say that I don’t really understand the purpose of those messages, at least amongst adults. I can see the “slap in the face is needed” mentality helping a high schooler or something, but I dunno–I don’t really see its purpose here unless the person comes in boasting or something like that.

Anyways, I’m a patient guy/in it for the long haul and will just keep working at it. I’m sure I’ll figure the whole thing out someday :). All criticisms are fair: as I said, I did not come into this thread with “look at how awesome I am” in mind. I wouldn’t have an interest in such a thread even if I were worth one. So, we’ll see. Thanks, all.[/quote]

Bullshit. Don’t try to weasel yourself out of this. You see the problem is NOT your “back integrity” or that it was a “heavy” set or some other nonsense, but your PATHETIC (deliberately chosen) squat depth. It is not just “a bit high”, it is stupid high. Calling it a quarter squat might even be considered an insult. Funny that you mention high schoolers, since Csulli provided some anecdotes about them regarding this very issue in the 600lbs bench thread.

And you deserve all the ridicule in the world for this because you actually claim to NOT KNOW/SEE/UNDERSTAND THAT despite posting a site like this.

Anyway, if you really care about all this as you claim, then learn to do full depth squats and in 6 months you look back at this thread, feeling embarrassed and having a laugh.

Quick_Ben · February 23, 2014, 6:56pm

I’d actually put the bar higher for doing quarter squats, stay more upright. I assume you’re doing full squats as well?

browndisaster · February 23, 2014, 7:01pm

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]Headache wrote:
When you set up, before you un-rack, try focusing on pinching your shoulder blades together as hard as possible and creating a “big chest”…this may help you to stay more upright and hit depth.[/quote]

FWIW, I think keeping your upper back tight on squats is over rated. I talked to a training partner of mine about this as well and he said he doesn’t focus on keeping his upper back tight either, but rather just “lets the bar sit there.”

It seems like heavy front squat holds/unracks are all I recommend on here anymore, but I think it’s one of the most beneficial exercises one can do to help build core strength (which will be hugely beneficial in maintaining an upright posture.)

OP, what are your goals? If it’s leg hypertrophy without any plans to ever compete in PL, then by all means continue with what you’re doing. However, if you ever do want to PL, then you need to work on depth and I would strongly advise not doing ‘no lockout squatting.’ But that’s only if you have PLing in mind. If it’s just pure hypertrophy you’re looking for, then others on here will be able to give you better advice. [/quote]
does your upper back round with a low bar position? If I get the bar real low that happens unless I really get my hands under the bar, which obviously leads to elbow pain.

Jathan_young · February 23, 2014, 8:10pm

If i was you, I would drop the weight and see if I could get a little lower, about parallel. If you are trying to hit your quads only, then this depth is fine. But your glutes and hams are not really getting worked on. Also, try and stay more upright. This is hard, especially if you are tall (which I think you are based on what I can tell). Im 6’2" and this is something I struggled on, but it is still important.

Claudan · February 24, 2014, 8:28pm

Yeah I’m outraged.

I’m outraged, and I feel like other should be to, because your video leads me to believe you cannot properly do a body-squat.

Then consider the amount of weight you put your entire body under while performing a botched and dangerous version of the same exercise.

Yeah I’m outraged about that. I’m outraged that you are not being safe with your own health.

Is that so fucking shitty of me? If it is, then it’s my fault but I won’t apologize for it.

magick · February 24, 2014, 9:19pm

How much weight is on the bar anyhow?

rrjc5488 · February 25, 2014, 2:17am

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]Headache wrote:
When you set up, before you un-rack, try focusing on pinching your shoulder blades together as hard as possible and creating a “big chest”…this may help you to stay more upright and hit depth.[/quote]

FWIW, I think keeping your upper back tight on squats is over rated. I talked to a training partner of mine about this as well and he said he doesn’t focus on keeping his upper back tight either, but rather just “lets the bar sit there.”

It seems like heavy front squat holds/unracks are all I recommend on here anymore, but I think it’s one of the most beneficial exercises one can do to help build core strength (which will be hugely beneficial in maintaining an upright posture.)

OP, what are your goals? If it’s leg hypertrophy without any plans to ever compete in PL, then by all means continue with what you’re doing. However, if you ever do want to PL, then you need to work on depth and I would strongly advise not doing ‘no lockout squatting.’ But that’s only if you have PLing in mind. If it’s just pure hypertrophy you’re looking for, then others on here will be able to give you better advice. [/quote]
does your upper back round with a low bar position? If I get the bar real low that happens unless I really get my hands under the bar, which obviously leads to elbow pain.[/quote]

When I was using low bar, from the second I unracked it, I was leaned forward at the hips in order to keep the bar from rolling off my back. Then after coming up out of the hole, I would overarch my entire back and finish in a weird position. And yeah, elbow pain was obscene.

I switched to high(er) bar squats and worked on squatting straight down while forcing my knees out and staying more upright rather than sitting back. With this bar position I would also stare at the ground a few feet in front of me instead of looking up. Just helped keep my upper back at a good angle.

This was in gear, though, so keep that in mind. I would definitely mess around, though. I like the high bar position much better than low bar, even for multiply squats.

browndisaster · February 25, 2014, 6:19pm

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]Headache wrote:
When you set up, before you un-rack, try focusing on pinching your shoulder blades together as hard as possible and creating a “big chest”…this may help you to stay more upright and hit depth.[/quote]

FWIW, I think keeping your upper back tight on squats is over rated. I talked to a training partner of mine about this as well and he said he doesn’t focus on keeping his upper back tight either, but rather just “lets the bar sit there.”

It seems like heavy front squat holds/unracks are all I recommend on here anymore, but I think it’s one of the most beneficial exercises one can do to help build core strength (which will be hugely beneficial in maintaining an upright posture.)

OP, what are your goals? If it’s leg hypertrophy without any plans to ever compete in PL, then by all means continue with what you’re doing. However, if you ever do want to PL, then you need to work on depth and I would strongly advise not doing ‘no lockout squatting.’ But that’s only if you have PLing in mind. If it’s just pure hypertrophy you’re looking for, then others on here will be able to give you better advice. [/quote]
does your upper back round with a low bar position? If I get the bar real low that happens unless I really get my hands under the bar, which obviously leads to elbow pain.[/quote]

When I was using low bar, from the second I unracked it, I was leaned forward at the hips in order to keep the bar from rolling off my back. Then after coming up out of the hole, I would overarch my entire back and finish in a weird position. And yeah, elbow pain was obscene.

I switched to high(er) bar squats and worked on squatting straight down while forcing my knees out and staying more upright rather than sitting back. With this bar position I would also stare at the ground a few feet in front of me instead of looking up. Just helped keep my upper back at a good angle.

This was in gear, though, so keep that in mind. I would definitely mess around, though. I like the high bar position much better than low bar, even for multiply squats.[/quote]
Awesome, thanks man. I’m having pretty much the same experience now that you did but with much less weight lol.

I’ll give the neck positioning a try next time I squat. I’m sure I could even hit low bar prs just by increasing my high bar work.

rrjc5488 · February 25, 2014, 9:50pm

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]Headache wrote:
When you set up, before you un-rack, try focusing on pinching your shoulder blades together as hard as possible and creating a “big chest”…this may help you to stay more upright and hit depth.[/quote]

FWIW, I think keeping your upper back tight on squats is over rated. I talked to a training partner of mine about this as well and he said he doesn’t focus on keeping his upper back tight either, but rather just “lets the bar sit there.”

It seems like heavy front squat holds/unracks are all I recommend on here anymore, but I think it’s one of the most beneficial exercises one can do to help build core strength (which will be hugely beneficial in maintaining an upright posture.)

OP, what are your goals? If it’s leg hypertrophy without any plans to ever compete in PL, then by all means continue with what you’re doing. However, if you ever do want to PL, then you need to work on depth and I would strongly advise not doing ‘no lockout squatting.’ But that’s only if you have PLing in mind. If it’s just pure hypertrophy you’re looking for, then others on here will be able to give you better advice. [/quote]
does your upper back round with a low bar position? If I get the bar real low that happens unless I really get my hands under the bar, which obviously leads to elbow pain.[/quote]

When I was using low bar, from the second I unracked it, I was leaned forward at the hips in order to keep the bar from rolling off my back. Then after coming up out of the hole, I would overarch my entire back and finish in a weird position. And yeah, elbow pain was obscene.

I switched to high(er) bar squats and worked on squatting straight down while forcing my knees out and staying more upright rather than sitting back. With this bar position I would also stare at the ground a few feet in front of me instead of looking up. Just helped keep my upper back at a good angle.

This was in gear, though, so keep that in mind. I would definitely mess around, though. I like the high bar position much better than low bar, even for multiply squats.[/quote]
Awesome, thanks man. I’m having pretty much the same experience now that you did but with much less weight lol.

I’ll give the neck positioning a try next time I squat. I’m sure I could even hit low bar prs just by increasing my high bar work.[/quote]

What do your high bar vs low bar weights look like?

mbdix · February 25, 2014, 10:25pm

[quote]magick wrote:
How much weight is on the bar anyhow?[/quote]

I think it’s 415#s total

browndisaster · February 25, 2014, 10:28pm