T Nation

For those that think Bush doesn't flip-flop


For those of you that think Bush has been consistent on his beliefs and Kerry hasnt, or if u just like John stewart and want a good laugh, then check this out.


Thank you, John Stewart is hilarious!


Right on target and hilarious.


except it misses the fundamental point that NO ONE anticipated a catalysmic event along the lines of 9-11, Bush's foreign policy (both diplomacy and military action) has been affected by that. Thats not him changing for political expedience ala Kerry. Its him changing because the situation dictates it.


Oh bullshit... flip flops are flip flops... its just the "nature" of the issue that forgives every transgression made...


Lighten up, it was funny. And I thought Bush claims Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11? I thought it was because of WMD's and then it was changed to for the sake of the people and to get rid of the horrible dictator, never did he claim 911 because he KNOWS theres no proof of that.

We all know politicians change their minds, thats why they are politicians. Bush has changed his foreign policy completely, hes changed his views on taxes, abortion, affirmative action, all since he was governor.

Im sure Kerry has changed his mind on dramatic things, although most accusations are BS. He changed his mind on the war? Give me a good reason why he shouldnt have. He supported his leader and then when Bush went about the war in a close to unconstitutional manner, he changed his mind. Big friggin deal.


"We all know politicians change their minds, thats why they are politicians. Bush has changed his foreign policy completely, hes changed his views on taxes, abortion, affirmative action, all since he was governor.

Im sure Kerry has changed his mind on dramatic things, although most accusations are BS. He changed his mind on the war? Give me a good reason why he shouldnt have. He supported his leader and then when Bush went about the war in a close to unconstitutional manner, he changed his mind. Big friggin deal. "

Are you serious? 'a close to unconstitutional manner' Honestly, is there some water in your lead over there at UPENN. Bush got congressional consent, including from Mr John Kerry. Thats all he needed. Stop throwing around unfounded accusations. You are beginning to sound like Nancy Pelosi or big Ted.

Also, there is plenty of evidence that Iraq supported terrorism. I know this might be a big suprise, but there are other terrorist groups besides Al Queda. Hussein offered huge rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers from Hezballah and Hamas, both groups which have sworn to destroy the United States. In addition to trying to assisinate a U.S President. What good does it do the United States if we destroy AQ, but then have Hussein giving money suicide bombers to attack the U.S. We are fighting terrorism, not just a specific group or organization. How is this not clear???

In addition, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence linking Al Queda and Iraq, even if it isnt a strong alliance does not mean there wasnt at least tacit support and potentially an increased alliance in the future. We need to be proactive not sit there and wait for the next new threat to develop.


I've considered the flip-flop issue since I earned my BA in Political Science 9 years ago. Basically, I don't mind politicians (in democracies) doing this, because it's a reflection of "people power" influencing their decision-making, which is a good thing. Obviously, that doesn't mean that it should be shallow and "scheming" but rather, pols should be willing to divorce themselves from certain positions when the times demands it. This could be due to the need to compromise, or because of a genuine change in one's beliefs.

With that said, Bush adapting his foreign policy to the 9/11 situation is obviously good. I'd hope any president would do the same. Kerry changing his positions for the election is expected (all pols do it), and most of the other pols doing it for short-term gain is likewise expected.

What irks me is the absolutist mentality that is too often taken by these pols, only to see them flip on a dime when they need public support. It makes them look like shallow morons. If they just spent more time defining themselves by their basic, core values...then at least we'd get a better idea of what to expect from them. Unfortunately, the media is more concerned with the soundbite and controversial "reporting" than helping us get a sense of what our leaders really believe in.

This rant is over, now!


I don't fault Kerry for flip flopping. After all that is what all politicians do. I have no problem with his service to our country, and I think it is dirty politics to question his remarks regarding Viet Nam. Many good men and women questioned that war. I think we need to leave it in the past.

I do fault Kerry for being a tad to liberal for my tastes. Translation: I don't like his ideas on how the country should be run. Also, I think the half a billion dollars that he married into not only dwarfs Bush's wealth, but makes him an elitist. This guy is an aristocrat. That is a bit disturbing.

Now, I am not all that crazy about our current President either. I think he went into Iraq to quickly. I understand why he did it, still didn't like it. Tax cuts are a good idea, and they were for everyone, naturally the wealthy got back more, because they paid in more.

Since there are only two real choices I will stick with Bush.

Matters not who Kerry picks as VP. The economy will be in full swing by late summer and people vote their pocketbooks. They always have, they always will. Prediction: Bush wins by 3 to 6 percentage points in November, like him or not.


I'd love to hear an alternative approach to Iraq from people who do not support the war. If there is no viable alternative, I suggest people stop complaining and get behind the war effort 100% As a matter of fact, like it or not, we are there. Get behind it for the troops' sake.



Sackocrack I thought you had more sense than this.


Give me a break people, my point was that everyone flip flops on issues, and that this clip was hilarious.

As far as the war issues are concerned.... First of all, stop saying that people who didn't support the Iraq war dont support the troops, thats just a rediculous statement to make. Second of all, stop making excuses for the war. The fact that Sadaam might support some terrorist organizations is a moot point. Yes hes an asshole, nobody disagrees with that, but thats not enough of a reason to go to war. We have many other allies that also support terrorism as well as many enemies, but we aren't going to war for that.

Just admit it, Bush went to war hastily and without enough evidence or support. We all know that its true, and its proven now that everything was too hasty in that we dont even know who we are going to hand power over to this summer. Do I support Sadaam? No. Do I support our troops? Yes. Am I glad Sadaam isn't in power any more? yes. Do I think Bush went about it in an immoral and ill planned out way? Absolutely.


That's crazy talk.


ZEB, Your simpleton logic is astounding. You must be delirious or ignoring the truth to protect your sanity. The situation is sad and depressing AND maddening. If you truly believe your reasoning I say go sign up at a recruiter's station tomorrow.
To say that Kerry's wealth dwarfs Bush's is simply incorrect. The Bush Family is incredibly wealthy AND better at hiding it in offshore accounts so that they don't have to pay taxes on it. And to call Kerry an Elitist? Please. Bush is about as elitist and aristocrat as you can get. Bush gets into Yale even though he does not have the grades. His father makes it happen. Bush gets out of serving in Vietnam because of his dad once again. Bush can't make it as a businessman on his own. His dad has to keep hooking him up with the most powerful and rich men in Texas. There is more, but let's leave it at this...Bush jr. reminds me of a king's son...rich, dumb and privileged. Have you not seen or heard of Bush's "joke" video looking for WMD under furniture in the oval office. "oh, not there, oops not there, chuckle, chuckle" were his words on video before a speaking engagement. Get informed. Bush couldn't care less about regular americans/troops losing their lives in Iraq, so he can give our tax dollars to his buddies in Bechtel Corp. Get informed. Your ignorance makes me sick. Bush appointed Ashcroft, who thinks it is more important to stop pornography than terrorism. Ashcroft took personel/resources, focus away from terrorism and has them investigating pornography. Please take your knowledge a little deeper. Tax cuts for everyone? The govt. can keep my two hundred dollars if they would not spend it in another 50 billion on Iraq. How can we be spending another 50 billion on Iraq after the 87 billion and every state in the US has a budget shortfall? There was no federal deficit before Bush came into office. Now the International bank is warning the US to get it's federal deficit under control. "naturally the wealthy get back more because they pay more"? Maybe in whole numbers but not proportionally. The very wealthy have more loopholes than ever to pay less taxes & they get back more in whole numbers and proportionally under Bush's tax cuts. You can vote for who you want, it is your vote, but your arguments are worthless.
And BILTRITEWAVE, you are simply wrong that no one anticipated an event along the lines of 9/11. Where have you been? Even general media has come out with lots of stories of warnings, from many sources and by people IN THE CIA prior to 9/11, that these threats/possibilities were real. Specifically of jets being used as weapons and structures as targets! Get informed. AND I do support the troops. I support them staying alive to comeback home to their families. To be with their wives, husbands, children, parents, etc. To be able to support their families. To live past 21. Bring the troops home! Yes, Bush got congressional consent, including Kerry, because supposedly there was proof of WMD. That has proven to be a flat out lie. That is why, among other reasons, Kerry AND others have changed their minds about the war in Iraq! We don't allow circumstantial evidence to convict someone one of murder, why should that be enough to link Al Queda to Iraq? There is more true evidence linking Al Queda and the Saudi's, who are our "friends." Yet we are not invading Saudi Arabia for their oil? Maybe they are our friends because they will manipulate oil prices to help get Bush reelected! You think women or the poor have more rights in Saudi Arabia than in Iraq? Get informed!
A true T-MAN believes in freedom. The Bush admin. wants to take away our freedoms. This isn't just about Iraq, it is about the future of this country. It is about the principles and wisdom this country was founded on. Be a true T-Man and seek your own knowledge. Look beneath and beyond the rhetoric.


"The fact that Sadaam might support some terrorist organizations is a moot point. Yes hes an asshole, nobody disagrees with that, but thats not enough of a reason to go to war"

Ummmm...yes it is. Wake up and welcome to the real world.

As for that diatribe below, which is filled with quarter truths, conspiracy theories and some blatant lies, because people arent informed with your wack job sources which have on numerous instances proven themselves to be false, does not mean the person is ill informed. You need to check your sources and try and read a more diverse group of websites.


I'm sorry, I just couldnt let the drivel above stand at as it is.

  1. The point about GW changing his foreign policy stance from the debates to 9/11 as a result of 9/11 still holds. Guess what, he didnt have access to those sources you mentioned as governor. He needs a little thing called clearance.

  2. We still belong in Iraq, WMD or No WMD. It's that simple.

  3. The idea that Bush sent us to war to give money to his friends is ridicilious, insulting and just a tad bit offensive when there is zero evidence that supports that statement and american troops are dying every day. Have some common sense, and stop believing in conspiracy theories.

  4. Tax loopholes for the Very Wealthy??? Really, is that why a sizeable chunck of the very wealthy are giving illegal to the Kerry campaign in huge sums of untracked soft money through 527 organizations. Funny, those Bush created loopholes must not be big enough. BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS.

  5. As for Saudi Arabia, have some common sense and a little bit more awareness of the geopolitical climate as well as our chummy foreing relations with the Sauds.

  6. The accusation about the Sauds rigging up oil prices and then lowering them before the election is moot point. 1) It something that he has said before for prior administrations, and never done, 2) Gas prices mean next to nothing in the overall general outcourse of an election. Gas prices were very high in 2000 and it had ZERO bearing on the election


bilt: People like you created Vietnam. Welcome to the Vietnam of the Y2K era.



I get the feeling that you don't like Bush. (har har). It's a shame you will have to put up with him for another four years.

You spent your 35th post attacking Bush (and me for some reason). And you refused to use paragraphs. You wild man you!

(Oh, and president Bush's wealth does not exceed 15 million. Not a small amount, but no where near the 500 million of Kerry and wife.


They all flip-flop. Bush is better than Kerry but that isn't saying much.


Denial is so powerful isn't it? Biltright.... no, an asshole of a leader is not enough reason to go to war. A preeminent strike was barely reason enough and that was because Bush convinced the people and congress that we were in IMMININENT danger. Were we? Was there truly any proof of this? No. Does it matter though? Suporters of the war will never understand the reasons why the war wasnt justified because they see other reasons for it. The other reasons don't matter, thats nt the reason we declared war, and for our leader to change them whenever one reason fails or is no longer good enough is practically treason. But get over it, that wasn't the damn point of this thread. You really think that Bush has less money available to him than Kerry than not only can you not add, but are a very ignorant person. Jst go to CNN.com or some other source and compare their money flow in and out.