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For P+C and P+F Meals

as i’m sure a lot of u know John Berardi, CT, and some others suggest making ur meal combinations of protein and fat or protein and carbs. Generally a slow digesting carb isnt too bad with a moderate amount of fat but the basic idea is the same.

anyway my question is this…what if u have a higher amount of fat in ur diet than carbs? i’d say most people (especially endo’s) have a higher amount of calories from fat in their diet than from carbs, but carbs are supposed to be mainly in ur breakfast/earlier meals and PWO (which for me is breakfast) so wouldn’t that mean ur P+F meals would be significantly higher in calories but also towards the end of the day? but usually the bigger meals should be in the morning. see what i’m saying? just wondering if anyone has an explanation

                                      Thanks

Sure, the P+F meals have the potential to have more calories (9 cal/ g vs 4 cal/g), BUT the effects on your blood sugar/insulin levels will be less pronounced, if at all. It’s not just a matter of going by the numbers, but taking a good look at what happens when you introduce different macros into your body.

S

As Stu said. Not all calories are created equal.

so your saying the later meals of the day are really supposed to be higher calories?

right now im following the basic plan of the “carb cycling codex” and like i said fat is significantly higher than carbs on some days so it seems that the later meals would be higher in calories than earlier meals IF i stick with no fat in the earlier meals

No, they’re not supposed to be higher in cals, but the lack of carbs will help in that your body will have to make due (use) what you’ve already given it so far.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
No, they’re not supposed to be higher in cals, but the lack of carbs will help in that your body will have to make due (use) what you’ve already given it so far.

S
[/quote]

how would it not be higher in calories tho?

lets just say u have 20% carbs and 35% fat…

if u get an equal amount of protein in each meal and have carbs in ur first 3 and the fats in the last 3 that would make ur last 3 meals higher calories right? thats what i’m saying is weird because generally u want more calories early on…see what i mean?

Um no.

At least I’m only going by your last paragraph.

You can have less grams of fat in your last 3 meals which COULD equal less calories overall.

Okay, let’s forget the caloric breakdown of each meal for a moment, and assume that your overall daily cals are at a high enough level to allow for a nice slow and steady gain in muscle weight (or loss, or whatever your goal is). Now,… don’t worry so much about where the calories are divided up. Sure, it’s usually smarter to frontload your larger meals so that you have more of an opportunity to make use of the calories you’re ingesting, BUT because of the nature of the macronutrient breakdown of the P+F meals later in the day, it will not matter that each gram of fat yields more calories than each gram of carbs.

Got it? :slight_smile:

S

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Um no.

At least I’m only going by your last paragraph.

You can have less grams of fat in your last 3 meals which COULD equal less calories overall.[/quote]

yea but my point is that ur taking in more fat during the day.

ok for example, lets say u have 300g of protein 100g of fat and 100g of carbs. each meal has 50g of protein in it. the first 3 will have about 33g of carbs and the last 3 meals will have 33g of fat. (of course there will be some slight carbs later and some slight fats earlier but this is just for example)

so right there ur following the rules of the p+f and p+c breakdown. the first 3 meals would be about 330 calories but the last 3 meals would have about 500 calories, and thats not even including the calories from the vegetables your supposed to be eating with the fats. thats what i’m saying is weird. the only way to make the first meals more calories while keeping the macro breakdown would be to add fat to it which would go again the whole p+c/p+f rule…

I also don’t really get it.

The way I see it, people who need to watch their insulin take a P+C meal at breakfest and PWO. The rest are P+F meals.

Don’t think of “gr of carbs/gr of fat” to eat, but just divide it into kcal. So your biggest meal is P+C and after that, your meals become smaller. Just take the amount of fat that “fits” into your calorie needs.

I don’t know how else to say it…

Okay, that’s it. At 6’0. and 155 lbs, you don’t need to worry about such unimportant miniscule details. You don’t have enough of anything worthwhile as a base anyway. If you are indeed eating:
300g protein (1200 cals)
100g carbs (400 cals)
100g fat (900 cals)

Then your total cals would only be 2500 and you’re not going to be gaining much of anything anyway.

No more answers for you. Go to the Beginner forum.

S

If you aren’t cutting and have a high calorie intake the partitioning is ridiculous. Sure,it may be better to restrict fat intake in a workout shake, or less carbs in your pre-bed anticatabolic shake, or you may feel you want a shake that goes down easy when you wake up and has a low fat content-but beyond that, it doesn’t makes sense unless you are cutting.

What is the point of it? To maintain more stable insulin levels and be able to eat more food without fat gain are the main arguments.

Well, not only does partitioning have no effect on body composition or fat loss, but for someone with a higher allowed carbohydrate intake it can actually result in LESS stable insulin levels from the constant fluctuation in macro intake, the exact opposite of the intention of the plan. There are studies to back this up.

If I am cutting, I end up “partitioning”, but that’s because I have less carybohydrates in my diet and naturally will end up having meals without many of them because most of my CHO intake is earlier in the day when my body is active and needs them most. If you are taking in hundreds of grams of carbs like you should be if you are trying to gain mass, the massive plan would suggest that you have 75+g of carbs over a few of your meals and then close to none in other meals not surrounding your workout- do you really think that is a good idea? Look at the massive changes in calorie and macronutrient intake, do you honestly think that will be better for maintaining insulin sensitivity?

Odds are you should probably be eating healthy foods with each meal in a balance you feel your body responds well to at the time of day and not worrying about splitting up your macros and what to eat when. Try to find a SINGLE athlete who does this. There are NONE. Even most bodybuilders don’t do this, and the massive eating type approach is supposed to be intended for them. That’s because it just doesn’t make sense. It’s a fad that caught on and they’ve been milking it for a while, but in most cases it isn’t practical and should never be the reason for your food choices.

That got a little long but that’s my opinion on this whole mess. You wanna get big, lift lots of heavy weights and eat lots of healthy food and don’t BS yourself with irrelevant details.

[quote]Patriek wrote:
I also don’t really get it.

The way I see it, people who need to watch their insulin take a P+C meal at breakfest and PWO. The rest are P+F meals.

Don’t think of “gr of carbs/gr of fat” to eat, but just divide it into kcal. So your biggest meal is P+C and after that, your meals become smaller. Just take the amount of fat that “fits” into your calorie needs.

I don’t know how else to say it…[/quote]

i get what ur saying. i’m just trying to understand the way this would break down. so are u saying the carbs all go in 2 meals or something? i mean i totally understand what u mean with breakfast and PWO being the big carb meals and saying it like that makes sense. i just mean if u broke it up into 3 carb meals it early in the day those would end up being the smaller meals

[quote]actionjeff wrote:

Well, not only does partitioning have no effect on body composition or fat loss… [/quote]

why would it have no effect on body composition? if that were true what would the point be.

i’ll admit, what ur saying in the rest of the post makes sense though. it seems weird to have really high carbs in 3 meals and then none in the other and I don’t know many bodybuilders who do that. HOWEVER, I do know some big people (like Christian thib) Who bulk with lower carbs and the point being to stay lean and in that case with keeping the carbs low it seems like it could be applicable

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Then your total cals would only be 2500 and you’re not going to be gaining much of anything anyway.

[/quote]

that was just an example

good question. I have no idea! I don’t think there is a point.

There was a roundtable I posted with some very respectable sports nutritionists and all of them debunked the partitioning theory. One of them cited a study comparing dieting to lose fat on a partitioning diet vs. a diet with the same intake and more balanced meals:

"Furthermore, significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference ratio were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of the diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly and similarly in patients receiving both diets. Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure values decreased significantly in patients eating balanced diets. The results of this study show that both diets achieved similar weight loss. Total fat weight loss was higher in balanced diets, although differences did not reach statistical significance. Total lean body mass was identically spared in both groups. "

I actually would have expected a slight advantage to the partitioning diet simply because of CHO allowance so this surprised me. I think a study on bodybuilders or athletes who are trying to gain muscle mass and the effect of partitioning on their diets would show the balanced diet to be vastly superior but I don’t have any studies to back that up

thats pretty interesting/surprising. do u have a link to that roundtable? i’d be interested in reading the whole thing

also whats ur opinion on low carb bulking in general? or even keto…

the p+f and p+c thing seems to make a lot of sense though, i thought Berardi was pretty sure about it…

I don’t really know, I’m not a nutritionist or bodybuilder or anything, I’m sure plenty of people around here are way more qualified to answer.

I believe most who do low-carb bulking centralize their carb intake around their workouts and do not do any endurance type cardio or are doing an anabolic diet or ketogenic type diet but I don’t think any of those options are very popular. A lot of people on here seem to like the Anabolic diet for cutting and bulking though.

Here’s the roundtable:

alanaragon.com/bodybuilding-nutrition-roundtable-
alan-aragon-will-brink-jamie-hale-layne-norton.html

the authors in this article have a lot of good articles of their own that you can find by searching for them on google, very informative stuff

the page isnt working for some reason, its not connected or something