For or Against

Dave:

I’m with you!!!

You would have to be irrational to beleive in something that can’t be proven, especially when there are things like Christianity, the Bible, and God that can be proven without a doubt through things such as personal feelings of peace and joy, experiences in life, and of course all of the real and logical evidence such as historical and archeological evidence that pretty much leaves little doubt as to the validity of Christianity, the Bible, and God. With all the proof for things like Christianity available, how could you beleive in something with NO evidence supporting it.

I’m agree with Dave’s statement!!! If you don’t beleive in God you are an irrational idiot!

jokes

All in good humor Dave.

Agathos said:You should read the Old Testament as well Hooge2000 :slight_smile: Your satement was wildly inaccurate but I can see where the mistake might have come from. Jewish history/worship/culture (worship of the true God) began centuries before that of Canaanites. Also remember that typical Canaanite culture involved many Gods, such as Baal, etc. based around cast idols and involving human sacrifice, etc. I beleive your confusion may stem from the fact that after the Jews settled throughout Canaanite lands many dissidant Jews allowed themselves to be influenced by the inhabitants religious beleifs, turning to worship of Baal etc.

the only reference to the old Testament I was making was concerning the statement Thunder made of God’s benevolence and about God never judged or cast people into hell. The whole Old Testament is filled with stories of a wrathful God who instead of forgiving simply wiped the slate clean,; usually violently.

I was discussing the fact that El, the cheif deity of the canaanites who had been around since the time of the Sumerians. Not Baal. El Shammai, Beth El, are just some of the titles found for this god in the Old testament. It was this god that the Jews made their God. (as in Elohim- but I can’t remember what that translates to, something like the face of El I think)

I’ve always found the argument that

“My belief/ faith in God comes from the way he has moved/ influenced my life.”

As something from which a logical proof can be drawn this is highly specious as the interpretation taken by the peerson of their life is totally subjective.

It doesn’t make it wrong - just not provable.

The thing about God, is that he/she/it is an agent that leads to understanding or enlightenment or at the least providing people with a reason to seek understanding and just as every culture/ society and person is different socially/ biologically and experientially the meaning adn form that god takes will differ for all.

FWIW: God could be nothing more than a mathematical proof, but you’d need a hell of a list opf variables to demonstrate that :slight_smile:

AGATHOS: Hi! Going fine! And you?

As for the debate interest, yep, Im hooked to this forum. Its always a good experience to exchange with quality people – you learn something each time, both about others and yourself. I see you`re posting on a regular basis, too. Keeps the place very alive. Good. =0)

Hyooge, try rereading what I said:

“Is he only a god of love and mercy who would never judge anyone and never cast anyone into Hell? If that’s your god, then you’re right. Your god couldn’t cast anyone into Hell because he doesn’t exist. He’s a figment of your imagination. You’ve created a god in your own mind that you’re more comfortable with.”

I think the point was that if you think that God does not judge, you’re wrong.

Thunder,

Hell?? I don’t live my life in fear that your delusional irrational beliefs might be true.

I don’t know what you mean with “don’t believe the bible” but I can tell you I believe it as much as I believe any other fiction book.

I’m pretty much an agnostic most of the time. I don’t believe that the existence of god is actually of any relevance to my daily life, nor I think it’s important for me to explain what I believe “God” to be. I call God to the force behind all life and to the misterious set of events that lead to the occurrence of life.

Anyone used entheogens?

Why the heck should anyone subjugate his identity and/or consciousness and/or better judgment to something absolutely out of his control by definition and/or less rational?

Aren’t we supposed to get better, make more sense as we age (both on a personal level and a societal level)?

Why surrender when you can just say ‘fuck it’?

It’s like trying to upgrade a rational system with irrational data – what more (better) can you expect out of it?

If we are just a spot of dust in the universe, let us just accept it as is. Why speculate if we have no power to change it? The best thing we can do is accept it, use what we have and adapt to our environmental limitations.

People should accept reality as it is, not as how they wish it should be. But then I am dreaming wishing so. ;os bonk

The notion of heaven and hell, as ridiculous as it might be, served an extremely important role as an assistance in keeping poor miserable people under the power of those who ruled the land during most history and to this day is used for this end, even if in a more subtle manner. I mean, it’s easier for someone to keep on living miserably if he/she believes that in things will better in the afterlife, isn’t it? Or to gather suicidal bombers with promises of a wonderfull after life.

To quote the great Bob Marley:

"Some people think,
Great God will come forom the sky
Take away everything
and make everybody feel high

But if you know what life is worth
You’ll look for yours on hearth
and now you see the light
Stand up for your rights"

Who needs Jesus when you have Bob??

eheheheh, oh the heresy…

Alright, ready when you are!!

Proverbs 20:24 “A mans steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way”

Who says? You think society is better now than it was 10, 20 or 100 years ago? Looks like the same fallen world to me. If you look at the second law of thermal dynamics it appears that we are running down not up. Fresh → Spoiled Young → Old

Sorry, I don’t get this surrender what? Screw what?

So because I do not have the same belief that you do I am irrational? That’s a Circular argument my friend. As I can say it is irrational to think order can come from Chaos. You believe the big bang started life yet I have never seen anything ordered as a result of an explosion. A car factory explodes Do you get a new type of car? Or a volcanic eruption, Do you see a new life form. Where is the design? Look about you, the human body is a wondrous design. An eco system a fantastic design. Design screams designer aka a creator. How is it when you freeze all other elements they contract but when you freeze water it expands? If it contracted the oceans would freeze over and life as we know it would be over. Design again.

That’s a pretty crappy outlook, why even try, if all you are is a speck of dust? Might as well be the biggest ass you can be, live hard and die young. Nothing matters and no sign of you will be here a thousand years from now.

The funny thing here is you thinking you have to give up who you are and how you think to believe in God. What’s to give up? What do you have that I do not?

Awhile ago you full on flamed me for judging something by it’s look without doing any investigation into the subject matter, which was probably deserved (I swear I was joking with you).

How much investigation have you done on this? Have you ever asked God to reveal himself to you? Have you ever read other books of the time period to find out who Jesus was? Ever Read the bible with an open mind or asked God to open your heart? Or instead do you dismiss it out of hand, to beneath your intellect to even consider that a creator God would want his creation to get to know him. It’s not religion it’s about relationship.

PHATMAN: I am short on time for now, I will reply more later, but, in short, my point is the following:

Belief in the Big Guy is not necessary to lead a satisfying life (adaptation). It is not because I do not believe in him that you can’t. I say my point of view. I won’t violently force it with a crusade down yours. I just won’t surrender my judgment of reality by something I cannot prove at all. I’ll keep searching for something more provable/scientific rather than to stop with answers written for a different epoch. In the past, they had no substitutes to faith. Now we have alternatives. I chose science.

You’ll get no argument from me there. I wouldn’t shove my faith down anyone’s throat. But in the same instance I would not categorize your beliefs as irrational because they don’t align with mine or my concept of reality. I applauded you in testing and searching but I’m afraid that “Faith” cannot be proved via science or disproved for that matter. This is why I keep referring to relationship and experience. I have reasons for my faith, I don’t have a blind faith. I look forward to your next reply, Be safe my friend.

OK, first of all, if any of you are in the algorithmic/mechanics of brains, go see this:

http://voidspace.hypermart.net/Psychology/Leary_Brain.html

(A model of the brain in 8 circuits, including drug-triggers. Yep. No typo.)

PHATMAN: It`s a good thing we are not already ripping ourselves to shreds because we start from different platforms. J/K ;0)

With the small amount of time of my living, I have come to the conclusion that faith, religion, etc. is a very personal matter, and everybody constructs his own model both in function of what one learns and one experiences.

Sure, exchanges can be done, but from what I have seen, people debate but they almost never change ideas, specially when things get heated. It takes a significant emotional event to change one`s deep seated spiritual point of view. People mostly change gears and their own speed.

Therefore, there is not much too say, really. What is true for you is true for you. What is true for me is true for me. Nobody can force, theoretically, another one to change viewpoints (except cults, force, etc.). One can expose his premises, explain the gaps and reasoning, but ultimately beliefs is something each one chooses on his own. As long as adhesion is willing, not forceful, and not coming from some big organization (or system). Ultimately, it is the person who changes by herself. Well, at least for a lasting one IMHO.

At start, it is a simple, deeply personal thing. It is just that some people cannot accept the status quo and/or difference and need to go on crusades. That is one of the reasons why I love science. If I have questions, wonders, or a beef against gravity, for example, nature will just sit there and let me experiment all I want, wherever I am. No human intervention is necessary, except for learning and logistics, so to say, but I digress. Nature, like a tornado, wont change her laws for me, whatever my wishes. She will answer only to a very systematic way of questioning. Secrets are not revealed easily. There is a consistency to laws of nature. Theyre very constant. What works in chemistry here works very much alike elsewhere on the globe. Same thing for gravity, etc. I just so happen to like that, specially the impartiality of it.

To close, my speckle of dust viewpoint can be seen in many ways. I prefer to bring it back to the sense level. Ill concentrate on what I can change, on my little own 2 square feet of planet earth, with the undetermined amount of time I have. Since it is undetermined, better do the best of it each time. Sure, I am a speckle, others too. But, like our forefathers who laid the groundwork for our century, Im doing my part, through work, to keep the standards of living getting better and better with the least amount of drag in the process to my fellow man and woman. That could seem small and simple to everybody, but heck, we live in others legacy and its far more real to me than the hundreds of millions of years necessary to do a lifecycle of universe. Ehehehe. I won`t be there to see it go through anyway. ;0)

Whew ! Long post ! Pause ! `Til next time ! =0)

“Our fathers were our models for god. If our fathers bailed what does that tell you about god? You have to consider the possibilty that god does not like you.He never wanted you. In all probabitlity he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen to you. We don’t need him.Fuck damnation. Fuck redemption. We are god’s unwanted children so be it.” Tyler Durden.

God is Santa for Adults. Instead of presents you get into heaven for following the rules. I’m not suprised that most people haven’t caught on. You live your life to make kids take care of them and die. We’ve been lucky enough to evolve and enjoy ourselves a little before we die.

Ross

Diesel23: Who proved or disproved Gods existence through science?

Ross MacMahon: Who is Tyler Durden? I would be interested in finding out his relationship with his own father.

Here are some reasons why I think theism is more plausible than atheism.

First, the origin of the universe. Where did it come from? Did it just happen? Why does it exist? Why does anything exist? Some people will say it began with the Big Bang but, where did the Big Bang come from? It had to come from something. Remember, out of nothing comes nothing!

I think of Aristotle’s First Cause argument or St. Thomas Aquinas calling God the Unmoved Mover.

In essence whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist therefore the universe has a cause.

If God did not create time or space who or what did?

Does it make more sense that God created the universe or that it began out of nothing?

opps I hit the submit button too soon.

Another good reason has to do with what PtrDr mentioned. The very complex and delicate nature of the universe.

What are the chances that this universe would be life-permitting? They are so small that Stephen Hawings said “that if the rate of the universes expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller than by even one part in a hundred thousand, million, million the universe would have recollapsed into a hot fireball”.

I have more of these types of examples from mathematicians and other distinguished professors but unfortunately I’m out of time. I’ll be back to give you some more of these mind-boggling illistrations.

But I leave it up to you. Is it more rational to believe all this arose from chance, law or design?

The creation of the universe is not due to chance or law therefore it’s design.

Zeppelin,
Tyler Durden is Brad Pitt’s character in Fight Club.

I’ve never met anyone who could disprove or verify that a god does exist. If someone had we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
I’m going bavk to the piece of ass thread now.

Ross

THis is really too late for this… I need to be getting some sleep.

But here it goes.

A philosopher by the name of Barruch Spinoza actually set out to prove the existance of God through Logic, using the Greek Euclidean Geometry for his theorms. I basically think that it worked. The only problem now is, what do you name it? What exactly is it? Well, many will anthropromorphize and assign human traits to God. Spinoza believed that those were all just symbols, but that GOd itself was above and beyond all that. Being happy, jealous, petty, satisfied, angry… None of those are traits of a supreme intelligence entity. According to Spinoza, we are not seperate from God except in our own perceptions of seperateness. The universe itself is god, infinite, eternal, and made up of an infinitely smaller things that were all created within it. He referred to this concept as “Monism”… we are all of the same substance. The ORIGINAL substance. Therefore, we are ALL God! Just like cells in a body are independent and have many different rolls they are still part of a greater whole, which is our bodys.

Oh, I can’t really dig into this one. It really is too late. I would love to continue this. I will be out of pocket for a few days in The Big Easy, so I may not get to follow up till Saturday. Hope the thread survives that long.

Goodnight guys.

"If God did not create time or space who or what did? "

The lack of an answer to this question does not prove the existence of god. This is where you separate the scientific from the superstitious thinking.

Hey Dan,
You and I agree completely on the personal and on the crusade thing. If I sound like I am on a crusade to convert anyone, I apologize, I’m not trying to push anything on anyone. I am merely answering questions about my faith, as they come up, and defending my position as we debate. Actually the reason I jumped on the thread was just your comment about “irrational vs. rational” thought and the inference that to believe in a creator was irrational.

When you think about it, you believe in a “Faith” based system yourself. You have faith that eventual science will find the facts necessary to prove the evolution theory as evolution fact. Since scientific laws today do not support the evolutionary theory.

Again I agree with you that we are not going to change either of our view points on a internet forum. My point is to explore all the possibilities fairly.

Think about this, if you were driving a car on a dark road, going about 60 miles an hour, and I told you I thought the bridge ahead was washed out, wouldn’t you at least slow down and check it out, even if you thought I was full of crap?

Anyways I really enjoyed the debate, you have a keen mind and I get the feeling you have done this a time or two before :slight_smile: