T Nation

For Bill Roberts

Bill, Just a few questions, I’m doing my 1st cycle that looks like this:

Sust Deca Dbol Clomid

500 300 30mg 50mg every other day

500 300 30 50eod

500 300 20 50eod

500 300 20 50eod

500 400 50eod

500 400 50eod

500 300 50eod

250 200 50eod

50 every day



Do you think the D-bol is necessary? Are the Deca dosages ok? Also, I know you highly recommend Cytadrin, but since its only 500 mg, how much Cytadrin do you recommend and how should I divide it up during the day? Should I use Proviron? Thanks a lot for your time and help.

I don’t follow this…I would be happy to help if
I could decipher what you’re doing? Are things weekly
or daily or what???


The Dianabol isn’t “necessary” but certainly is adding
quite a bit to results, since (according to how I see it)
the Deca does little towards Type II (non-AR-mediated)
activity, and 500 mg/week testosterone does some good there
but doesn’t completely cover it. Overall I don’t agree with
the tapering down idea… my article on cycling explains
why. Keep the dose at what you feel gives you the best balance of gains to side effects… then transition as
quickly as possible to a level which allows some recovery.
Tapering down has you spending longer than necessary in
a dosage range where you neither make good gains nor
achieve much if any recovery. For this reason I would drop
Deca first (longest half life and has poor ratio of anabolic
to inhibitory activity) and keep Dianabol going all the way, ultimately changing to morning-only use. If Primo is available I’d swap it for the Deca no later than 3 weeks
from the planned end of your cycle. Cytadren is not as highly recommended as Clomid, and is best used 1/2 tab on
arising, 1/4 tab six hours later, and 1/4 tab six hours after that. This gives partial but very significant
antiaromatase activity without causing ACTH/cortisol problems… using more than that tends to cause problems there.

Brock- sorry for the way the message turned out. It is weekly dosages. The dianabol is stopped at week 4 and after that, the 1st column is Sustanon dosage, 2nd column is Deca, and 3rd column is clomid.

Bill- thanks for the help. What dosages would you recommend for the deca and Primo. The reason I chose these dosages is that I’ve heard that you’ll need to use more deca with each sucessive cycle, and I don’t want to use more than 400mg a week.

Yes, a good rule of thumb is that most guys can take 400 mg/week of Deca without having much mood problems, but usually (not always) a higher dose will cause mood problems and often severe libido problems. For some individuals, that can show up at less than 400 mg/week, so it’s variable.

If using 400 mg/week Deca, you’re getting pretty good
coverage of androgen receptor mediated activity. You could
get somewhat more by using another 400 mg/week of Primo
on top of that, but unless well over your natural limit
you should also be able to make good gains without that
if you are using Dianabol as well.

If using Primo only, 400 mg/week is a reasonable minimum
and if you can afford a gram, go for it!

It’s not really that you need more “each cycle.” You need
more the further you get over your natural limit. Uf for
example you’d done a bunch of cycles but then for some
reason, e.g. sickness and not training, you lost all your
gains, “even though” it might be your 10th cycle, you’d
be set up for superfast gains without doses having to
be super high. It’s not how many cycles you’ve done, that
really has nothing to do with it though many people in
bb’ing say that it does (not having thought about the
above fact or understanding the physiology and biochemistry.)

Thanks for the help. So your saying that even though this is my 1st cycle, I should use 400 mg of Deca, and then at week 6, switch to Primo at 400 mg for the last 3 weeks. Also, I was unclear about the Cytadrin in my 1st post. In reading your articles, you said that it is best to take a estrogen receptor antagonist(clomid) together with an aromatase inhibitor(cytadrin) for best results, which is why I was asking if I should get some cytadrin. You also state that less than 250 mg of Cytadrin is needed if Test usage is less than 1g a week. I’m going to use 500 mg so how much cytadrin should I use and how should I split it up? Also, should I add Proviron to this?

For Brock- the clomid use is every other day until 1 week after my last sustanon shot, where it becomes an every day dose.

I honestly don’t remember ever saying that less than 250 mg/day of Cytadren was needed if testosterone dose was less
than 1 gram per week. Almost impossible to believe I ever
said that: I certainly never have believed that so if I
said it it was a typo of some kind. Basically, 250 mg/day
given according to the schedule I gave below (which answers
your question on schedule) is only partly effective, is
inexpensive, and gives no side effect problems, so there
is no reason to use a lower dose if using Cytadren at all.

With your dosage of aromatizing steroids you could certainly
use just the Clomid unless you are very prone to gyno.

The Dianabol will certainly add significantly. The Deca dosages, see my reply below.

Best of luck on your cycle!

Bill- I’ll look and see if I can find where you said about the Cytadrin. It was in one of your question and answer articles on mesomorphosis. If you didn’t say it I’m sorry for bringing it up. Most likely, it was an error on my part. Thanks a lot for all your help.