T Nation

Fooling the Nervous System?

Some Karate-ka train with weighted gi

So I figure it could work.
At least it did in Dragon ball Z :oP

Not sure who said it, but a weighted belt really might be the better answer, as far as you center of gravity.

[quote]GhostOfYourMind wrote:
I’d advise against ankle weights on or close to joints like the wrists and ankles. I’m guessing that over time, that extra poundage concentrated in that one area will have some bad affects on the connective tissues and the joint itself. It may improve your performance, but in reality, that performance increase probably only lasts so long. It’s the same concept as punching with weights.

It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off.

Anyways, I think your idea will only work if you keep doing it for a VERY long time and really never stop, or if your body adapts by hypertrophying in some way. Neural adaptations, I’m guessing, will “fade” faster in that the body will realize that once you’re not wearing that weight vest after 1 or 2 weeks, and don’t go back to it for maybe a month, it’ll decondition, thinking it no longer has to pony up to handle the extra load.

I dunno though, I could be wrong. Try it and see what happens, just remember you’ll have X amount more weight to deal with, so if you decide to go running or jumping or back flipping like a ninja, take it more on the easy side first.:)[/quote]

i could see your theory on the joints and all but when you said " It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off." i disagree because your using weights so your muscle gets stronger and i take it like lifting weights almost because you make the muscles that help you run or do something else stronger. Just my take on that.

[quote]Mike T. wrote:
GhostOfYourMind wrote:
I’d advise against ankle weights on or close to joints like the wrists and ankles. I’m guessing that over time, that extra poundage concentrated in that one area will have some bad affects on the connective tissues and the joint itself. It may improve your performance, but in reality, that performance increase probably only lasts so long. It’s the same concept as punching with weights.

It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off.

Anyways, I think your idea will only work if you keep doing it for a VERY long time and really never stop, or if your body adapts by hypertrophying in some way. Neural adaptations, I’m guessing, will “fade” faster in that the body will realize that once you’re not wearing that weight vest after 1 or 2 weeks, and don’t go back to it for maybe a month, it’ll decondition, thinking it no longer has to pony up to handle the extra load.

I dunno though, I could be wrong. Try it and see what happens, just remember you’ll have X amount more weight to deal with, so if you decide to go running or jumping or back flipping like a ninja, take it more on the easy side first.:slight_smile:

i could see your theory on the joints and all but when you said " It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off." i disagree because your using weights so your muscle gets stronger and i take it like lifting weights almost because you make the muscles that help you run or do something else stronger. Just my take on that.[/quote]

Well, weight lifting and sport specific techniques are two different things. Punching with free weights can mess your technique up. Free weights travel down. The purpose of a punch is to generally go forward. Your body will need to compensate for that downward force when you punch with a weight. It probably wreaks havok on your shoulders as well in the long term. The fact that you have to accelerate, and then decelerate the weight very fast, while it’s pulling your arm down, can’t be a good thing. Now, I can agree with doing a ballistic type of movement (like throwing a medicine ball; I think Ross Enamait wrote a book with that in there some where?). However, then it’s more of a ballistic push, not really a punch technically speaking.

My point is… Working the muscles by intensifying the technique they perform can hinder performance by throwing off motor patterns, and also can increase risk of injury. If you want to get better and stronger at punching, lift weights to get bigger and stronger, but also work on your punching technique. Sometimes it’s not a question of how strong you are, but how you can use that strength better than the other guy.

That’s how I see it. Plus I’ve always been taught to not weigh down a technique. Interesting point of view though. That’s why I love T-Nation.

[quote]GhostOfYourMind wrote:
Mike T. wrote:
GhostOfYourMind wrote:
I’d advise against ankle weights on or close to joints like the wrists and ankles. I’m guessing that over time, that extra poundage concentrated in that one area will have some bad affects on the connective tissues and the joint itself. It may improve your performance, but in reality, that performance increase probably only lasts so long. It’s the same concept as punching with weights.

It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off.

Anyways, I think your idea will only work if you keep doing it for a VERY long time and really never stop, or if your body adapts by hypertrophying in some way. Neural adaptations, I’m guessing, will “fade” faster in that the body will realize that once you’re not wearing that weight vest after 1 or 2 weeks, and don’t go back to it for maybe a month, it’ll decondition, thinking it no longer has to pony up to handle the extra load.

I dunno though, I could be wrong. Try it and see what happens, just remember you’ll have X amount more weight to deal with, so if you decide to go running or jumping or back flipping like a ninja, take it more on the easy side first.:slight_smile:

i could see your theory on the joints and all but when you said " It doesn’t help your punching speed or power in the long run. Maybe at first you’ll feel quicker, but after a few minutes, that effect will wear off." i disagree because your using weights so your muscle gets stronger and i take it like lifting weights almost because you make the muscles that help you run or do something else stronger. Just my take on that.

Well, weight lifting and sport specific techniques are two different things. Punching with free weights can mess your technique up. Free weights travel down. The purpose of a punch is to generally go forward. Your body will need to compensate for that downward force when you punch with a weight. It probably wreaks havok on your shoulders as well in the long term. The fact that you have to accelerate, and then decelerate the weight very fast, while it’s pulling your arm down, can’t be a good thing. Now, I can agree with doing a ballistic type of movement (like throwing a medicine ball; I think Ross Enamait wrote a book with that in there some where?). However, then it’s more of a ballistic push, not really a punch technically speaking.

My point is… Working the muscles by intensifying the technique they perform can hinder performance by throwing off motor patterns, and also can increase risk of injury. If you want to get better and stronger at punching, lift weights to get bigger and stronger, but also work on your punching technique. Sometimes it’s not a question of how strong you are, but how you can use that strength better than the other guy.

That’s how I see it. Plus I’ve always been taught to not weigh down a technique. Interesting point of view though. That’s why I love T-Nation.[/quote]

Very nice reply, i like your point of view on that, not to drag it on though, but what about if you dont use free weights for the punching, i seen this boxers website and he had exercises, like power clean with a sandbag, had grips on it, regular exercise, but then he had one that he stood a barbell straight up with weights on the end and the bottome against a corner at the bottom and broght it towards his body and pushed it away, just like a punching motion with added weight, what is your opinion on that?

I think problems arise when you look at the speed of the movement.

It’s like doing jumpsquats. If you do them with 20# of added resistance, they’re great. If you do them with 85# of added resistance, not so great. Look at the speed of the movement, once it starts to slow down to a certain point I think you might start confusing your nervous system.

Here’s how I would do it for a simple example of increasing bat speed. I would do unweighted swings and also swings with a weight on the bat that descreases bat speed no more than 5% and I would do them in a 2:1 - 4:1 ratio of unweighted:weighted.

Now keep in mind that I’m basically conjuecturing and could be pulling all of this out my ass but that’s just make take on it.

RJ, I think it’s just something about you that makes all of your threads get highjacked! I can’t really register an opinion either way, but I would take a guess that there would be negligible gain either way since the muscles that would be recruited would be slow twitch and probably wouldn’t get recruited in the triple jump anyway.

This kind of gets me thinking though… It’s been shown that a certain amount of pelvic tilt is better for sporting performance. Could this type of slow-twitch “therapy” be done to change pelvic tilt? Makes for an interesting thought, but I don’t think I’d fuck around with it personally.

hypergravity loading is only used when your in everyday life

the weight vest is taken off when you sleep, shower and train

I noticed a similar effect when I dropped a load of water when going low carb. Bigtime gains since power didn’t drop off in such a short time frame and your body is still sued to the heavier weight

now if you can get fat and then lipo suction all that off if a few days that would be ideal :wink:

Okay, I’ve been looking around for more information on this topic and I found an old post in Kelly Baggett’s Q&A section. He said by wearing the vest continually vertical leap gains of 4-5 inches were made in a few weeks. A study by Bosco was his reference, I believe.

I’m not in the market to improve vertical leap specifically, but 4-5 inches of vert would seem useful in a general sense. Anyways, I’m not to worried to mess with my firing patterns as I’ll be removing the vest for all sprinting sessions. If I do this, I can see no problems arising.

And to jtrinsey, yeah, it does seem like all my threads get highjacked, doesn’t it?

RJ “My threads get jacked often” Nelsen

Personally I’d think that if you’re trying to improve your sprint then focus on specific sprint training. Isn’t wearing a weighted vest for improving vert comparable to parachute sprinting. As soon as you take off the vest you feel lighter and more powerful so you can jump higher or at least think you will jump higher. As soon as the parachute is removed you feel faster and less restricted and as a result able to run faster. This just seems like common sense to me but I have been wrong before. Once.

RJ,

I’d love to see you try it, just for personally selfish reasons. If you do, conduct it like a science experiment and record your data. It could be legitimately useful in the future.

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Okay, I’ve been looking around for more information on this topic and I found an old post in Kelly Baggett’s Q&A section. He said by wearing the vest continually vertical leap gains of 4-5 inches were made in a few weeks. A study by Bosco was his reference, I believe.

I’m not in the market to improve vertical leap specifically, but 4-5 inches of vert would seem useful in a general sense. Anyways, I’m not to worried to mess with my firing patterns as I’ll be removing the vest for all sprinting sessions. If I do this, I can see no problems arising.

And to jtrinsey, yeah, it does seem like all my threads get highjacked, doesn’t it?

RJ “My threads get jacked often” Nelsen[/quote]

I wonder, has anyone ever increased their verticle leap by that much without also increasing their speed as a by product?

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
hypergravity loading is only used when your in everyday life

the weight vest is taken off when you sleep, shower and train

[/quote]

Yet another thing I’ve been doing all wrong! I thought that by wearing it while sleeping, I could improve my sleep on nights that I don’t wear it. I’m such an idiot!

DB

There is actually quite a lot of support for this. We had an athlete were a vest for three weeks. He did everything in the vest except for showering and sleeping. The loads started at 7.5% bodyweight and increased weekly by 2.5% bodyweight…the last week he was wearing a vest with a load of 12.5% of his bodyweight. He wore the vest everywhere. If he went to the grocery store…he wore the vest. It went to the movies…he wore the vest. If he ran…he wore the vest. If he was banging his girlfriend…yup wore the vest. People thought he was wearing a bulletproof vest. It worked. He improved his vert by 3 inches and took a tenth off his 40. This was a well trained athlete as well.

There is actually support for this in the scientific literature.

Lackner, J. R. and Graybiel, A. Rapid perceptual adaptation to high gravitoinertial force levels: Evidence for context-specific adaptation. Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine. 1982; 53(8)766-769.

Ianuzzo, C. D.; Gollnick, P. D., and Armstrong, R. B. Compensatory adaptations of skeletal muscle fiber types to a long-term functional overload. Life Sciences. 1976; 191517-1524.

Lange, R. D.; Gibson, L. A.; Driscoll, T. B.; Allebban, Z., and Ichiki, A. T. Effects of microgravity and increased gravity on bone marrow of rats. Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine. 1994;

Le Bourg, E. and Lints, F. A. Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 4. Climbing activity. Gerontology. 1992; 3859-64.

Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 5. Patterns of movement. Gerontology. 1992; 3865-70.

—. Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 6. Spontaneous locomotor activity. Gerontology. 1992; 3871-79.

Maloiy, G. M. O.; Heglund, N. C.; Prager, L. M.; Cavagna, G. A., and Taylor, C. R. Energetic cost of carrying loads: have African women discovered an economic way? Nature. 1986; 319668-669.

Martin, R. K.; Albright, J. P.; Clarke, W. R., and Niffenegger, J. A. Load-carrying effects on the adult beagle tibia. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 1981; 13(5):343-349.

Martin, W. D. and Romond, E. H. Effects of chronic rotation and hypergravity on muscle fibers of soleus and plantaris muscles of the rat. Experimental Neurology. 1975; 49758-771

McDonagh, M. J. N. and Davies, C. T. M. Adaptive response of mammalian skeletal muscle to exercise

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
hypergravity loading is only used when your in everyday life

the weight vest is taken off when you sleep, shower and train

Yet another thing I’ve been doing all wrong! I thought that by wearing it while sleeping, I could improve my sleep on nights that I don’t wear it. I’m such an idiot!

DB[/quote]

Dude, If you take that thing off before you go to be your super-chiasmic nucleus will shut down and you will stop breathing.

Realy though, What are the worlds top triple jumpers currently doing?

Wouldn’t it make sense to do what they do if you want the results they get?

[quote]jonlifts wrote:
There is actually quite a lot of support for this. We had an athlete were a vest for three weeks. He did everything in the vest except for showering and sleeping. The loads started at 7.5% bodyweight and increased weekly by 2.5% bodyweight…the last week he was wearing a vest with a load of 12.5% of his bodyweight. He wore the vest everywhere. If he went to the grocery store…he wore the vest. It went to the movies…he wore the vest. If he ran…he wore the vest. If he was banging his girlfriend…yup wore the vest. People thought he was wearing a bulletproof vest. It worked. He improved his vert by 3 inches and took a tenth off his 40. This was a well trained athlete as well.

There is actually support for this in the scientific literature.

Lackner, J. R. and Graybiel, A. Rapid perceptual adaptation to high gravitoinertial force levels: Evidence for context-specific adaptation. Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine. 1982; 53(8)766-769.

Ianuzzo, C. D.; Gollnick, P. D., and Armstrong, R. B. Compensatory adaptations of skeletal muscle fiber types to a long-term functional overload. Life Sciences. 1976; 191517-1524.

Lange, R. D.; Gibson, L. A.; Driscoll, T. B.; Allebban, Z., and Ichiki, A. T. Effects of microgravity and increased gravity on bone marrow of rats. Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine. 1994;

Le Bourg, E. and Lints, F. A. Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 4. Climbing activity. Gerontology. 1992; 3859-64.

Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 5. Patterns of movement. Gerontology. 1992; 3865-70.

—. Hypergravity and aging in Drosophila melanogaster, 6. Spontaneous locomotor activity. Gerontology. 1992; 3871-79.

Maloiy, G. M. O.; Heglund, N. C.; Prager, L. M.; Cavagna, G. A., and Taylor, C. R. Energetic cost of carrying loads: have African women discovered an economic way? Nature. 1986; 319668-669.

Martin, R. K.; Albright, J. P.; Clarke, W. R., and Niffenegger, J. A. Load-carrying effects on the adult beagle tibia. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 1981; 13(5):343-349.

Martin, W. D. and Romond, E. H. Effects of chronic rotation and hypergravity on muscle fibers of soleus and plantaris muscles of the rat. Experimental Neurology. 1975; 49758-771

McDonagh, M. J. N. and Davies, C. T. M. Adaptive response of mammalian skeletal muscle to exercise [/quote]

I made a mistake when I sent that last post. I wasn’t quite finished when I sent it.

Anyway, the studies above are not sports specific or training specific, but they are a place to start.

Here are a few more references to help you make a decision.

McNeal, J. R. Neuromuscular adaptation to hypergravity in highly trained females: University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT; 1996M.S

Ploutz-Snyder, L. L.; Tesch, P. A.; Crittenden, D. J., and Dudley, G. A. Effect of unweighting on skeletal muscle use during exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. 1995; 79(1):168-175

Polhemus, R.; Osina, M.; Burkhardt, E., and Patterson, M. The effects of plyometric training with ankle and vest weights on conventional weight training programs for men. Track & Field Quarterly Review

Reilly, T. and Peden, F. Investigation of external weight loading in females. Journal of Human Movement Studies. 1989; 17165-172

Rusko, H. and Bosco, C. Metabolic response of endurance athletes to training with added load. European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology. 1987; 56412-418

Sands, W. A.; Poole, R. C.; Ford, H. R.; Cervantez, R. C.; Irvin, R. C., and Major, J. A. Hypergravity training: Female track and field athletes. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 1996; 10(1):32-35

The last one is important.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Realy though, What are the worlds top triple jumpers currently doing?

Wouldn’t it make sense to do what they do if you want the results they get?
[/quote]

This is usually the argument I use when discussing training “fads” with people (Air Alert, Jumpsoles, etc.), but sometimes it’s not always true. If you think about he’s NOT a world-class triple jumper, so his training SHOULD be a LITTLE different. Plus I feel like a world-class triple jumper might be too afraid to try something like this. Sometimes at that level it’s more about not screwing things up and letting the freaky athletes just be themselves.

I’d imagine the results “wore off” rather quickly?


Screw the extra weight, all you need are Strength Shoes.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
Everyone knows that the less extra weight one has on their body, the less encumbered they will be during speed and agility based movements. For this reason, many people make improvements in speed and leaping ability once they have lost excess fat.

Would it be right to assume that if someone were to wear a weighted vest all the time, except for in training, for several weeks, their body would adjust to this weight, and once the vest came off, they would perform significantly better? I was thinking about starting with a 10lb vest and adding 2 pounds a week until I reached 20-30 lbs and then allowing my body to acclimate itself to that weight. Whenever I needed to perform, I would remove the vest and reap the benefits of my new, “lighter” body.

I fully realize how stupid I’ll look wearing a weighted vest all the time, but it would be a small price to pay for the performance benefits I’m expecting.

Does anyone have experience with something similar, or perhaps see a flaw in this plan?

Thanks,
RJ

I think that’s a great idea!

Baseball players use a weighted dougnut or a led bat so that the bat they actually use seems lighter.

Why not give it a shot. I think the only way it goes wrong is if you use weights (vest) that’s too heavy for your bodyweight. I would try to use a 10lb or 15lb. vest, no more.

Good luck.

[/quote]

Yes, the bat does feel lighter. But doing so makes you teach your body to rotate slower. The swinging of the heavier bat builds strength. Swinging a lighter bat than what you usually use would build to train speed.

Doing both would be best & would build power.

Athletes have been wearing the weighted vest for yrs. in their training, which works great for speed, quickness & vert.

Not so sure about wearing it all the time though. Sounds interesting.

[quote]grappler wrote:
Screw the extra weight, all you need are Strength Shoes.
[/quote]

LMAO! I forgot that Seinfield did a show with Kramer using the SS’s! Great pic.

I still us em, they work the hell out of the calves.

it could possibly help, but I would avoid going too heavy because adding weight to yourself in the form of a vest does not do the same thing as having extra body fat in terms of weight distribution. With the vest you have quite a bit of weight added to your upperbody, and none lower than your waist, this area would carry a good chunk of fat if you had the extra 20lbs as adipose tissue. Also, I think doing agility drills as fast as possible is more important than trying to combine some strength with the speed. But, just like all types of training, your body could use the different stimulus, and if it gets used to moving your bodyweight+ you should improve with just your bodyweight. However, I would have this as a structured part of a program, not all the time.