Following Irtidad

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Having been through this a multitude of times, you’d think I’d know better than to respond to you, but… what the hell.

OK, so your point is that if the US didn’t back Mubarrak and his “state of emergency,” it’d be less likely that there’d be Muslims calling for the heads of converts, right? [/quote]

I never made a point anywhere close to that. People are going to do whatever they’re going to do. But given that the legal system in Egypt unambiguously grants freedom of religion, any aberration has to be attributed to the dictatorship in place. And American taxpayers financing the Mubarrak dictatorship, then bitching about horrors that happen under that autocratic regime is utterly hypocritical.

Do you disagree?

[quote]lixy wrote:

Do you disagree?[/quote]

yes,

Why did the same laws apply in Afghanistan under the Taliban? No US backed ruler in charge there. Nor in Somalia.

Would the Islamic Brotherhood support freedom of all religions in Egypt?

edit- Amazing how you blame the US for the problems (and by blaming the US and Musarraf, you must admit they are problems) in YOUR religion.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Having been through this a multitude of times, you’d think I’d know better than to respond to you, but… what the hell.

OK, so your point is that if the US didn’t back Mubarrak and his “state of emergency,” it’d be less likely that there’d be Muslims calling for the heads of converts, right?

I never made a point anywhere close to that. People are going to do whatever they’re going to do. But given that the legal system in Egypt unambiguously grants freedom of religion, any aberration has to be attributed to the dictatorship in place. And American taxpayers financing the Mubarrak dictatorship, then bitching about horrors that happen under that autocratic regime is utterly hypocritical.

Do you disagree?[/quote]

I wonder what Islamic behavior we can bitch about? You’ll somehow find a way to blame it all on the United States.

We can always look at the situation in Egypt for dhimmies BEFORE Mubarrak and see if any of your assertions hold water. Of course, it doesn’t. Dhimmies were treated worse then.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Even if we grant that the government can control EVERYTHING that happens in a given country (a VERY dubious assertion!), [/quote]

Huh? Do you even know what an autocratic regime is? Are you aware of the presidential powers under state of emergency in Egypt?

I’m not quite sure you understand how much control Mubarak has over the justice system.

You must explain to me who the “we” represent. Would it by any chance be PRCalDude, Sifu and Gkhan? In which case, I usually see more stroking than “discussing”.

Ironically, there is discussion going on in Egypt.

So why would you dryly quote an ongoing trial case from Egypt.

Are you unaware of legal precedents whereby officially registered Egyptian Muslims change religion? Or are you simply playing dumb when it suits your needs?

Let me guess…the Brits should have never left?

I don’t see any quote posted twice by you.

I suggest we cut all bullshit and ambiguity. How about you start a thread, make a point and list arguments you think are supporting it?

[quote]lixy wrote:
So why would you dryly quote an ongoing trial case from Egypt.
[/quote]

Cases were quoted from several countries. The only difference with Egypt, which is why you chose to debate only this one, is because Egypt is an ally of the US. And it is no secret you hate the US.

Why don’t we talk about ongoing and older cases in Afghanistan? Somalia? Syria? Iran? the Caucasus? Places where the dictators in charge are NOT US allies and the same thing is going on in their courts?

Care to discuss those cases or just stroke your anti-American hatred?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:

Article 47 of the Egyptian civil law guarantees freedom of religion.

The country has been under state of emergency for 30 years, where a dictator rules by decree, and shits all over the constitution and legal documents.

The same dictator gets billions of dollars from Washington.

Americans bitch about the legal status of minorities in the dictatorship they’ve been supporting, arming and financing for three decades.

What’s wrong with that picture?

  1. The photographer is aiming at irrelevant subject matter.

  2. The fascist Muslim element is missing.

So, to summarize, you don’t want to bother with the legal aspects, [/quote]

We DO want to bother with the legal aspects. Shari’ah is a legal system. We’re trying to discuss how the clear mandates in Bukhari and their jurisprudence through the 4 Schools unequivocally teach death for apostates. A posted a link to the chapter of Bukhari entitled, “Dealing with Apostates.” Did you read it? You really know your Qur’an (except for the parts about jihad and smiting the necks of inidels), but do you know your Hadith?

[quote]Chushin wrote:
But, just because I feel like it, here’s the Wiki quote for the THIRD time:

[i]The four major Sunni Madh’hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) and the Twelver Shi’a Jafari madhab agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur’an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi’i interpreted the Qu’ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[4] Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[5] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[6][7] and Shi’a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8]
argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[/i]

Let me know if you STILL can’t see it, ok? [/quote]

I see it alright. But what about it? It’s a stinking POV article whose main reference is Encyclopaedia of Islam. A text exclusively written by Europeans from Catholic Universities about how they perceive the Islamic world - at the same time when Europe was colonizing it from Rabat to Jakarta.

You refuse to make a point but continue to cultivate ambiguity. I don’t know what macabre agenda you’re hiding (if any), but I renew my invitation to start a thread, so we can discuss it.

P.S: For the record,

“Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly, the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path.” – Quran 2:256

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
But, just because I feel like it, here’s the Wiki quote for the THIRD time:

[i]The four major Sunni Madh’hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) and the Twelver Shi’a Jafari madhab agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur’an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi’i interpreted the Qu’ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[4] Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[5] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[6][7] and Shi’a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8]
argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[/i]

Let me know if you STILL can’t see it, ok?

I see it alright. But what about it? It’s a stinking POV article whose main reference is Encyclopaedia of Islam. A text exclusively written by Europeans from Catholic Universities about how they perceive the Islamic world - at the same time when Europe was colonizing it from Rabat to Jakarta.

You refuse to make a point but continue to cultivate ambiguity. I don’t know what macabre agenda you’re hiding (if any), but I renew my invitation to start a thread, so we can discuss it.

P.S: For the record,

“Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly, the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path.” – Quran 2:256[/quote]

If that is true Lixy, then perhaps you can answer this. Why did Mohammad own slaves?

I can’t think of a more compulsive act than to make someone a slave. I get the distinct impression that Mohammad didn’t really mean what he said.

Perhaps you could share your extensive knowledge of Islam and teach us the proper “context” that explains why slavery is an appropriate act for the apostle of god to be committing.

Once you relieve me of my ignorance about slavery perhaps you could then explain why any of the women Mohammad raped were not being compelled either.

The distinct impression I have about Islam is that supposed moderates like yourself just turn a blind eye to the acts of Mohammad in order to avoid having to make a judgment about whether or not he was on a crooked path.

I get the impression that Muslims put so much effort into putting Mohammad high up on a pedestal that you are conditioned to never think about his faults.

Kidnapping, slavery, torture/mutilation, rape, murder are most unspiritual acts. How do you rationalize all that?

[quote]
“Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly, the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path.” – Quran 2:256 [/quote]

Surah 2:256 has to be read in conjunction with several ahadith and Surah 9:29.

Technically, no one can be forced to embrace Islam, though per Surah 9:29, your other options are 1) death 2) jizyah and dhimma.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980

Paying jizya is a sign of kufr and disgrace if they do not embrace Islam:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986

Says Ibn Kathir:

The conditions of Dhimma are listed further down the page of the second link I provided.

Caught you in another lie, lixy.

this story doesn’t implicate the US at all in Al-Gohary’s trial:

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
this story doesn’t implicate the US at all in Al-Gohary’s trial:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egyptian Christian's recognition struggle [/quote]

/Inhales deep breath, awaiting the obligatory remarks about the crusades, witch trials, etc./

[quote]Sloth wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
this story doesn’t implicate the US at all in Al-Gohary’s trial:

/Inhales deep breath, awaiting the obligatory remarks about the crusades, witch trials, etc./[/quote]

Maybe we should beat lixy to the punch. Let me try:

Obviously, had the infidel Zionist-governed crusader nation not invaded the Land of the Two Rivers, this would not have happened.

And Israel.

Between, the two of us, I think we’ve covered all the usual “don’t focus on that, look over here instead” moves.

Now, as far as Al-Gohary’s story, what a shame. I see that’s he not just worried about what some government thugs might do to him, but what the common people will do to him.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Between, the two of us, I think we’ve covered all the usual “don’t focus on that, look over here instead” moves.

Now, as far as Al-Gohary’s story, what a shame. I see that’s he not just worried about what some government thugs might do to him, but what the common people will do to him.[/quote]

Actually, the government sounds every bit the Islamic version of “by the people, for the people,” as long as the “people” happen to be the Muslim majority.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:

P.S: For the record,

“Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly, the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path.” – Quran 2:256

Which is supplemented by this?

Quran 9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

So, I can’t be “compelled” to be a Muslim, but will then be forced to pay extortion money and “feel subdued?” [/quote]

If you lived on Islamic land, yes.

And how is it “extortion money”? A state needs money to run. Muslims paid the zakat as per the Fourth Pillar. Others usually paid protection money. Believe it or not, that was 1400 years ago. If you’re know of a current system where people are treated equally, let me know.

Freedom of religion is a recent concept. The concept is pervading majority-Muslim countries slowly, and vilifying the religion itself will only create a knee-jerk, rally-around-The-Book reaction (which we are witnessing).

Many things. You do like Islamists do, by missing the forest for the tree when it comes to the Quran. And you can’t distinguish between political, cultural and religious aspects. The other side is guilty of that as well. Instead of accepting advice and wisdom, all they see are colonizers who, up until recently, justified horrors under the guise of some mission civilatrice.

This needs its own thread. So, for the last time, I invite you to gather your thoughts together and post them.

Well, you repeatedly pop up on threads where Muslims are depicted as savages, acquiescing whatever PRCalDude, Sifu or Gkhan are saying. You quote them for truth, as kids would say these days. And when directly asked about your positions, you cultivate ambiguity.

You may not have “any freaking agenda”, but it sure seems that way.

[quote]If you could convince me that there is some “peaceful co-existence” interpretation of all this crap, I’d be happy!

I don’t want to have to believe that Islam is this ugly. But so far you’re losing the hearts and mind battle… [/quote]

With people who will “believe that Islam is this ugly” until proven otherwise, it was lost from day one.

I personally think it’s going to get worse. The Muslim is the new Jew.

LOL. I haven’t seen you express any heartburn over Al-Gohary’s situation yet. You’re just outraged that we’re correlating Islamic behavior with Islamic text. You are certainly quite the savage. No wonder you don’t want to live in Islamic countries: everyone is too much like yourself.