T Nation

Florida Lifter's HRT Adventures


#1

Hey, gang. New here. Like you can't tell! I posted this in three different threads, I think, before I figured out how to start a thread. Now, I'll just stay here! Sorry about that.

I am 42 years old. Lifted on and off most of life ( mostly off for last decade, though), and trying to get back into shape. Got a new trainer, and have lost 14 lbs of mostly fat in three weeks, so that's good. I gotta get calipered again in a week, but I'm guessing I am probably coming in a little under 20% BF now (I started out at 23%, before I started this). Maybe 15%? We'll see, I can only hope...

A buddy of mine is a cop and ripped to shreds , so he suggested I start going to his doctor a few weeks ago for HRT. Doc prescribed me with Testosterone cypionate,0.2 cc twice a week.

When I mentioned concerns about my balls shrinking, he prescribed HCG, 1/2 cc 2x a week. Both into the "belly fat"... I still have a fair amount of that, LOL

Basically, I sat on it all for two weeks... couldn't decide if I wanted to inject anything or "stay natural", even though my Test and Free test levels came out kind of low. ( Test is 436, and Free test is 94)

Finally, at Doc's urgings, I started. The Cyp was fine. Took it twice, and then I started the HCG. HATED it! My balls really felt funny, even kind of hurt. "Blue" all the time, really quick. Always "moving around", it seemed. Wood woke me up several times a night, too. I still get that anyway, "normally", but this was kind of over the top. LOL Also, kind of "burned" in my groin "lines". I definitely didn't like the feeling. Anyone else had a similar experience?

I called the doc, and HE is on "medical leave" the rest of the month! So I cant' ask questions. Frustrated, I stopped everything.

Just went to another HRT Doc today, to get a second opinion (spending way too much $$ on this). He wants to put me on Pregnenalone and DHEA, to do bioidentical stuff more.

So, I'm more confused than ever. Anybody out there had similar experiences? Any advice from people who have had HRT?

Any help would be appreciated.

By the way, someone else on here when I posted this before, requested more of my lab stats. I'm a newbie at this, but here's what I think he meant:

                                    RANGE

IGF: 172 ng/ml 101-267
Testosterone, Serum: 436 ng/dL 241-827
Estradiol: 29 pg/mL 0-53
Testosterone, Free: 94
Dhea- Sulfate 224 ug/dL 95-530
PSA- 0.4 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Hope this is enough to help! I've been a lurker on these Forums a long time, and have been really impressed with the knowledge of some of the regular posters.


#2

What part of Florida … I know a GREAT Doc in South Florida.


#3

I live in South Florida and currently trying to work things out with my Urologist and getting a little frustrated. What is your doctor recommendation, I may need to give him a call in the near future. Thanks.


#4

[quote]sxracer wrote:
What part of Florida … I know a GREAT Doc in South Florida.[/quote]

I’m in central Florida. By Orlando, actually, SX. Thanks, though. Why are you going to go to a urologist, Kevin? Have you started HRT and had problems of some sort?


#5

He follows just about ALL of Dr Crislers protocols.


#6

[quote]sxracer wrote:
He follows just about ALL of Dr Crislers protocols.

[/quote]

Well, if that helps…

You got a doc to script you with those numbers? I’m shocked. Is it an anti-aging clinic?

Cops, firefighters, and military usually have a much easier time convincing docs to script them. Count your blessings.


#7

[quote]Florida Lifter wrote:
sxracer wrote:
What part of Florida … I know a GREAT Doc in South Florida.

I’m in central Florida. By Orlando, actually, SX. Thanks, though. Why are you going to go to a urologist, Kevin? Have you started HRT and had problems of some sort?[/quote]

I first had my T levels checked by my PCP. The numbers came back low and he started me on the gel. I inquired about the injections and he referred me to the Urologist. I’m now on the injections, but the doc doesn’t see a need for an AI or HCG.


#8

[quote]Florida Lifter wrote:

By the way, someone else on here when I posted this before, requested more of my lab stats. I’m a newbie at this, but here’s what I think he meant:

                                    RANGE

IGF: 172 ng/ml 101-267
Testosterone, Serum: 436 ng/dL 241-827
Estradiol: 29 pg/mL 0-53
Testosterone, Free: 94
Dhea- Sulfate 224 ug/dL 95-530
PSA- 0.4 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Hope this is enough to help! I’ve been a lurker on these Forums a long time, and have been really impressed with the knowledge of some of the regular posters.[/quote]

So with normal labs and no symptoms to report…uh, why do you need a doctor?


#9

Anyone know of a good doc in central FL? otown to tampa?


#10

[quote]Diezz wrote:
Anyone know of a good doc in central FL? otown to tampa?[/quote]

The doc I posted up earlier only needs to see you ONCE every 6 months. (Worth the drive)

He will fax you BW requests if you ask for them at any time.

He does Test(Cream or Injections - you choose), HCG, and anti-e as a complete program.

He even does HGH if you are interested and test on the low side for IGF-1.

Like I said … he is the Dr John Crisler, of the south !

I was going to fly to michigan, until I found this doc.


#11

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

So with normal labs and no symptoms to report…uh, why do you need a doctor?

[/quote]

Well, after those labs, both of these docs said I was “on the low side” on my test and free test. Yes, they are anti-aging doctors. Like I said, the first one I was referred to by my cop friend. That doctor did HRT with synthetic drugs (like Test Cyp) where as the second one I went to, this week, is all about bioidenticals and supplements (and expensive tests, like saliva tests).

To complicate matters, or at least make them more “interesting”, my Dad just had prostate removal because of cancer there, and my grandfather (his dad) had p.c. as well. So, even though my PSA numbers were admittedly REALLY good ( as you can imagine, I was very relieved, considering I got these back about the same week when my Dad was diagnosed), I was pretty shook up. This all happened after my first visit to the first doc, when he gave me a Test Cyp script. So it made me really nervous, b/c of the old thoughts about p.c. and test. I started doing more research on HRT including reading a book by the Harvard doc referenced in another thread here, Dr. Morgenthaler. All of the anti-aging guys believe p.c. is from too much Estrogen, and too LITTLE Testosterone.

So, I started this journey thinking about getting in better shape, upping the muscle mass, and lowering my BF%. Now, I’m thinking of it more as preventative for p.c. down the line, and all that other stuff is just a “bonus”.

I’m just not liking how it’s going so far, and trying to see if my “symptoms” on the stuff are similar to others’ experiences. Also, to get some feedback from those who know about biodidentical HRT vs. synthetics, like Test Cyp, etc. Hope that clarifies.


#12

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Florida Lifter wrote:

By the way, someone else on here when I posted this before, requested more of my lab stats. I’m a newbie at this, but here’s what I think he meant:

                                    RANGE

IGF: 172 ng/ml 101-267
Testosterone, Serum: 436 ng/dL 241-827
Estradiol: 29 pg/mL 0-53
Testosterone, Free: 94
Dhea- Sulfate 224 ug/dL 95-530
PSA- 0.4 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Hope this is enough to help! I’ve been a lurker on these Forums a long time, and have been really impressed with the knowledge of some of the regular posters.

So with normal labs and no symptoms to report…uh, why do you need a doctor?

[/quote]

Wondered the same thing.


#13

Those are “age adjusted” ranges for GH.

Meaning, those are normal GH levels for someone in their 40’s.

Everyone in their 40’s, pretty much by rule, has low GH.

You do not want to be like them, or be judged by their ranges.

Your IGF-1 score, which is a marker for GH is low.

You want to shoot for GH levels of a healthy 25 year old, which is likely over 300.

At 170’ish, you are currently low, suffering from adult onset GH deficiency.


#14

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Florida Lifter wrote:

By the way, someone else on here when I posted this before, requested more of my lab stats. I’m a newbie at this, but here’s what I think he meant:

                                    RANGE

IGF: 172 ng/ml 101-267
Testosterone, Serum: 436 ng/dL 241-827
Estradiol: 29 pg/mL 0-53
Testosterone, Free: 94
Dhea- Sulfate 224 ug/dL 95-530
PSA- 0.4 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Hope this is enough to help! I’ve been a lurker on these Forums a long time, and have been really impressed with the knowledge of some of the regular posters.

So with normal labs and no symptoms to report…uh, why do you need a doctor?

Wondered the same thing.

[/quote]

Those labs are not normal.

His GH is low.

His estrogen is high when compared with his T level, which is bordeline low. Typical of middle aged guys with a few extra pounds to spare.

His DHEA is low as well. DHEA starts to plummet around 30.

I suggest you spend the rest of the year reading and studying hormone and growth hormone replacement therapy. For at least a year. Preferably every day.

Then go on it

But you need to know what your doing.

In the mean time, hit the weights and lose some weight.

Try the velocity diet

Get some quality fish oil, vitamin d3, superfood, zma and nootropics.


#15

Thanks for the advice, Wise Guy. I will look into those things you mentioned. Good info.

I have been taking a “crash course” in studying HRT, and will continue to do so. One of the things I still don’t understand is why the HCG seemed to give me a problem when I tried it. I don’t hear of it doing that to others when I’ve been reading about it. LOL… maybe it just didn’t like ME?

Got the ZMA and the quality fish oil… will look into the velocity diet and the rest. Thanks again.


#16

[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Florida Lifter wrote:

But you need to know what your doing.

In the mean time, hit the weights and lose some weight.

Try the velocity diet

…[/quote]

I agree with these three thoughts.

Sorry, WG: The remainder is wrong or unfounded or unnecessary.


#17

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Florida Lifter wrote:

But you need to know what your doing.

In the mean time, hit the weights and lose some weight.

Try the velocity diet

I agree with these three thoughts.

Sorry, WG: The remainder is wrong or unfounded or unnecessary.[/quote]

How so, Doc? What’s wrong about the rest? I’m just here to learn, so I would love to know your thoughts and why.

Thanks!
-FL


#18

[quote]Florida Lifter wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Florida Lifter wrote:

But you need to know what your doing.

In the mean time, hit the weights and lose some weight.

Try the velocity diet

I agree with these three thoughts.

Sorry, WG: The remainder is wrong or unfounded or unnecessary.

How so, Doc? What’s wrong about the rest? I’m just here to learn, so I would love to know your thoughts and why.

Thanks!
-FL[/quote]
No offense intended in any of this, but let’s think about what you wrote.

Nowhere do you speak about symptoms of low T. failure to lose body fat doesn’t count; loss of muscle mass does.

Next, your labs are normal. Normal is normal especially when they are in the midrange of normal in someone with no symptoms. This business of results “on the low side” is spurious. Half of normal men, rigorously defined, are “on the low side.”

Should we then treat half the men with normal values. This is not hormone replacement therapy, but supplementation, of “optimization” or pharmacologic dicking around.

{I am wary of “life extension docs” “diagnosing” a problem where there is none; they seem to have something to sell; this was your experience, not my prejudice. }

Dicking around has its consequences. If there is something impressive about this forum, it is how many men have taken stuff, had problems, and then have had real trouble getting to normal again. Why invite that kind of trouble with exogenous T, HCG, DHEA etc…, unless you have a specified abnormality and a specific goal?

Last, let’s look at your heritage. None of us can know your heritable risks of prostate cancer. Let’s presume that replacement therapy does not cause pc. Can anyone say the same about supraphysiologic dosing? Will your friend, the ripped cop, take any responsibility if you get pc (for whatever reason) in 10 years?

You want to get slim .Biotest makes great products; use them. Save the hormones for when you need them.


#19

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Sorry, WG: The remainder is wrong or unfounded or unnecessary.[/quote]

Let’s debate then.

I say

His GH’s levels are low. Needs GHRT. Typical of nearly everyone over 40. GH levels begin to plummet by 50% every seven years after the age of 25.

His DHEA levels are low. Needs DHEA replacement. Typical of nearly everyone over 40. DHEA levels begin to plummet every year after the age of 25.

His estradiol levels are high, compared to his TT. I don’t see a FT range, but I would guess its around 200ish (NOT the age adjusted range, but the range for a 25 year old. His range given to him that he failed to list is bogus.)

I say he needs GHRT and DHEART.

Never did I say he needs TRT. He very well could see huge increases in Test with GHRT + DHEART + Substantial losses in body fat.

Dr might not precede my handle, but I’m no typical shlub you see on this forum


#20

I agree with WG… next patient please !

[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

Sorry, WG: The remainder is wrong or unfounded or unnecessary.

Let’s debate then.

I say

His GH’s levels are low. Needs GHRT. Typical of nearly everyone over 40. GH levels begin to plummet by 50% every seven years after the age of 25.

His DHEA levels are low. Needs DHEA replacement. Typical of nearly everyone over 40. DHEA levels begin to plummet every year after the age of 25.

His estradiol levels are high, compared to his TT. I don’t see a FT range, but I would guess its around 200ish (NOT the age adjusted range, but the range for a 25 year old. His range given to him that he failed to list is bogus.)

I say he needs GHRT and DHEART.

Never did I say he needs TRT. He very well could see huge increases in Test with GHRT + DHEART + Substantial losses in body fat.

Dr might not precede my handle, but I’m no typical shlub you see on this forum
[/quote]