Fish Oil Really Healthy?

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You are making some critical errors.

First, should I, as a member of T-Nation, NOT promote a product that I know works simply because it is sold by Biotest? I did in fact mention that there are “highly touted major brands” that should be purchased.

However, should I encourage others to take products that I have never taken and know little about?

Furthermore, doesn’t it make sense that anyone who hangs out here on a regular basis and buys Biotest products would recommend them? They work, are reasonably priced and are of the highest quality.

Are we supposed to NOT mention any Biotest brand simply to make visitors like you feel better?

Finally, I want to see your studies on the dangers of fish oil. I have no knowledge of such information. However, I do have plenty of information regarding the benefits of said supplement.

And as I said I have taken high doses for about six years with great results!

I really don’t care about the supplement pushing. If it is what funds this site, the more power to you. There are more people and posts here than usenet so i’m not complaining. HOWEVER, the bias to me seems that because it sells fish oil, it will do everything in its power to discredit any info suggesting that it is not so healthy afterall…even if it is valid info. But I guess the same can be said for casein causing cancer etc. Perhaps the difference between this site and others are that this one is preoccupied with muscle growth predominately and not health and well being overall.

As for the negatives on fish oil. I have provided a link – go through and read the various essays. Look up Dr. Peat and his July 2005 newsletter entitled the “Great Fish Oil Experiment”. Or PM me your email and i’ll send it to you. Also check out usenet and look up what some of the various academics have to say about it.

As I said, i’m not knocking fish oil. However, I think people should do a little more research instead of taking it because people tell them it’s so healthy. I encourage others to do the same with ALL supplements, not just this one.

The most important parameter of “studies” is to first determine who is PAYING for the study.
[/quote]

You have somehow missed the most important point of my first post on this thread!

I have something far more important than a “study.” I have used fish oil for about six years and it has made all the difference in my blood profile. It lowered my LDL and raised my HDL.

That would be in the area of “health.” In addition to that fish oil is a great supplement for bodybuilding purposes.

By the way, I have read the few posts that you have on this board. You seem to be knocking whey protein on another thread.

Are you here as an objective reader, or did you come here for a purpose?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

You have somehow missed the most important point of my first post on this thread!

I have something far more important than a “study.” I have used fish oil for about six years and it has made all the difference in my blood profile. It lowered my LDL and raised my HDL.

That would be in the area of “health.” In addition to that fish oil is a great supplement for bodybuilding purposes.

By the way, I have read the few posts that you have on this board. You seem to be knocking whey protein on another thread.

Are you here as an objective reader, or did you come here for a purpose?
[/quote]

That’s great that you have had some benefits, but how do you know that you are not even doing more harm to your body? You don’t so you are treating yourself like a rat. There are studies that show its cholesterol lowering properties, but many studies show just the opposite. Not everyone is like you, and as I mentioned it may be a 2 edge sword. We just don’t know. I think the best thing would be to eat whole fish instead of some highly unstable snake (opps mean fish) oil.

Re: whey protein, I have yet to determine the hype and would like to be proven beyond all doubt that it is a safe and effective supplement. You are more than welcome to comment on my questions re: msg/glutamic acid, insomnia, etc. Unlike many that simply buy everything under the sun for the sake of increased muscle (and not caring about health), I rather look deeper into things such as whey – such as how is it processed? Do they use acids to separate the protein? Just how much are the aminos denatured? Etc…

I have come here to learn like the rest, but to also challenge some thinking. You think fish oil is great…that is your opinion. So let’s debate it intellectually. You are free to comment on the studies I have posted, but if you just want to share your personal anecdote that is great to.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You have somehow missed the most important point of my first post on this thread!

I have something far more important than a “study.” I have used fish oil for about six years and it has made all the difference in my blood profile. It lowered my LDL and raised my HDL.

That would be in the area of “health.” In addition to that fish oil is a great supplement for bodybuilding purposes.

By the way, I have read the few posts that you have on this board. You seem to be knocking whey protein on another thread.

Are you here as an objective reader, or did you come here for a purpose?

That’s great that you have had some benefits, but how do you know that you are not even doing more harm to your body? You don’t so you are treating yourself like a rat.[/quote]

Do you realize that there are no long term studies on any supplement,(most) medications or food either for that matter.

Claiming that I am treating myself like a lab rat is a bit over the top.

Do you know the long term effects of:

-Lifting weights?

-Endurance training?

-Stress?

-Massage?

-Vitamin C?

-The “B” vitamins?

-Tylenol?

Hey, how many long term studies were done on Pepsi and Twinkies? Or for that matter Oatmeal or any other “natural” food?

And in addition to this,

I noticed (on another thread) that you are perfectly fine eating saturated fat. While I agree with you and do the same myself, how can you and I be sure that saturated fat is not harmful?

There have been studies which seem to demonstrate that saturated fat causes all sorts of health problems. Yet, for some reason you choose not to believe those studies.

So…someone is right and someone is wrong.

I will suggest that you continue to eat a high level of saturated fat because you do not feel that it has harmed you. And in fact you may be experiencing very good health under your current diet.

Again most studies claim that saturated fat leads to some serious coronary problems. But you don’t care because you know better based on what?

You enjoy good health and have been eating saturated fat for a while? And you choose to trust the studies which demonstrate saturated fats health benefits.

I have no problem with that.

For every study that you provide which demonstrates that fish oil is deleterious to the body, I will provide five studies which demonstrate that fish oil is quite beneficial.

You will lose the “study” battle, not only on fish oil but on saturated fat as well!

What do we have left after that?

Only this, I have taken large doses of fish oil over a long period of time and it has improved my health in many ways!

And that is really all you have to offer up regarding your own nutritional regime.

Not sure of your backround but fish oil is not something that is akin to a new antioxidant found in tea leaves.

It is the final endproduct of omega-3 oils that your body processes to EPA and DHA both are essential to human life meaning they must be aquired through the diet, just like essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals.

Using fish oils bypasses the conversion process in your body making them more effecient to use than something like flax oil which is broken down by your body into EPA and DHA.

Also human digestion is not equivalent to a convection oven or a frying pan and must good brands ie. Flameout have vitamin E in the capsules themselves to prevent breakdown and as always they should be stored in the fridge.

Lastly the idea behind increasing the Omega-3 ratio in the diet is because it has been decreased in modern diets do to farm animals being grain fed versus letting them graze primarily on grass. And through the processing of foods. Also omega-6 fatty acids are very prevalent in most average people diets. This stuff has been said long before Biotest ever had a website or sold Flameout.

No one is saying to fry your fish oil and have 6 tablespoons per day, everything in moderation 6-10 capsules is not going to kill you. Wether it helps or how much, who knows most studies say yes so I will take my chances,not overdo it and use my fish oils.

Jeep

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Do you realize that there are no long term studies on any supplement,(most) medications or food either for that matter.

Claiming that I am treating myself like a lab rat is a bit over the top.

Do you know the long term effects of:

-Lifting weights?

-Endurance training?

-Stress?

-Massage?

-Vitamin C?

-The “B” vitamins?

-Tylenol?

Hey, how many long term studies were done on Pepsi and Twinkies? Or for that matter Oatmeal or any other “natural” food?

And in addition to this,

I noticed (on another thread) that you are perfectly fine eating saturated fat. While I agree with you and do the same myself, how can you and I be sure that saturated fat is not harmful?

There have been studies which seem to demonstrate that saturated fat causes all sorts of health problems. Yet, for some reason you choose not to believe those studies.

So…someone is right and someone is wrong.

I will suggest that you continue to eat a high level of saturated fat because you do not feel that it has harmed you. And in fact you may be experiencing very good health under your current diet.

Again most studies claim that saturated fat leads to some serious coronary problems. But you don’t care because you know better based on what?

You enjoy good health and have been eating saturated fat for a while? And you choose to trust the studies which demonstrate saturated fats health benefits.

I have no problem with that.

For every study that you provide which demonstrates that fish oil is deleterious to the body, I will provide five studies which demonstrate that fish oil is quite beneficial.

You will lose the “study” battle, not only on fish oil but on saturated fat as well!

What do we have left after that?

Only this, I have taken large doses of fish oil over a long period of time and it has improved my health in many ways!

And that is really all you have to offer up regarding your own nutritional regime.
[/quote]

You’re right – studies are probably not very effective. I guess this is where common sense comes into play. Overall, you have to read into both the pros and cons and experiment on yourself.

However, just because you have had benefits (feeling good, reduced arthritis, whatever…) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for you. I tend to look more at the negative facets due to the fact that there is typically vested interests ($$$) in hyping and promoting these things.

From my research, and common sense I have concluded that supplements should be looked at with suspect eyes. If you were to believe what is hyped you would literally have to go to your nearest health store and buy 1 of everything.

Now, I have been suckered into ginseng, gingko, coral calcium, etc. etc. ad nauseum and felt nothing. I have felt better with fish oil but have researched that it’s because of bad stuff occuring in the body.

Overall you have to do what you think is healthiest. I would love to be proven without a doubt that fish oil is a healthy supplement that will promote health and longevity, but how much is too much? I eat fish every other day…fatty fish…so is it necessary to take fish oil too for optimal health?

[quote]jeep7588 wrote:
Not sure of your backround but fish oil is not something that is akin to a new antioxidant found in tea leaves.

It is the final endproduct of omega-3 oils that your body processes to EPA and DHA both are essential to human life meaning they must be aquired through the diet, just like essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals.

Using fish oils bypasses the conversion process in your body making them more effecient to use than something like flax oil which is broken down by your body into EPA and DHA.

Also human digestion is not equivalent to a convection oven or a frying pan and must good brands ie. Flameout have vitamin E in the capsules themselves to prevent breakdown and as always they should be stored in the fridge.

Lastly the idea behind increasing the Omega-3 ratio in the diet is because it has been decreased in modern diets do to farm animals being grain fed versus letting them graze primarily on grass. And through the processing of foods. Also omega-6 fatty acids are very prevalent in most average people diets. This stuff has been said long before Biotest ever had a website or sold Flameout.

No one is saying to fry your fish oil and have 6 tablespoons per day, everything in moderation 6-10 capsules is not going to kill you. Wether it helps or how much, who knows most studies say yes so I will take my chances,not overdo it and use my fish oils.

Jeep[/quote]

The amount of EPA/DHA that is essential to human life is so small that it’s probably impossible not to get from regular food. Secondly, how do you know that your body isn’t more efficient at actually breaking things down instead of getting them in straight pure form. Do you know that either fat or carb cofactors are required for optimal protein absorption? How do you know that some other cofactors aren’t required in fish to optimally utilize its fats? Perhaps antioxidants, saturated fats,etc? What i’m saying is that you are taking a highly concentrated processed from of a single fatty acid and claiming that it’s all positive and no negative, or at least the positive outweigh the benefits.

I wouldn’t put to much faith into the ‘studies’ as they probably come from the same sources that claim that a high carb diet is the healthiest and provides “energy” so eat lots of bread and pasta! What a disaster.

You’re last paragraph said it well. Who knows. You are taking this stuff on blind faith that it is good, and not harmful.

I think i’ll just stick to food that we were designed to eat.

PS. What do cows eat in the wild in the winter when there is no grass?

The biggest difference I have noticed from the fish oil is that my skin is now incredibly soft and smooth, specifically my stomach/chest area. It is really quite something.

I’m not so sure about the other effects, they probably are there albeit at amounts which are mostly unnoticeable. For example, they may reduce soreness, but my workouts usually are intense enough to make me sore no matter what, so the reduction isn’t something that I automatically notice and attribute to them. Although the last time I went to the doctor my blood pressure was “REALLY GOOD” according to the nurse. But I think it’s a good supplement to take, and cheap, so try it for a few months.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
PS. What do cows eat in the wild in the winter when there is no grass?
[/quote]

Fish oil.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:

You’re right – studies are probably not very effective. I guess this is where common sense comes into play. Overall, you have to read into both the pros and cons and experiment on yourself.[/quote]

And really that was my original point.

Hold on there. It does not mean that it’s bad for you either.

In fact, unlike drugs when you consume a natural supplement and it does in fact have some sort of (almost) immediate positive benefit that is usually a sign that it is good for you, both short and long term.

As opposed to a drug which might immediately stop the pain but at the same time may cause heart problems. (See viox studies)

I can argree with you here. That’s one reason why I have researched many supplement companies and am careful to only consume supplements from reputable sources.

Here’s the part that you don’t like for some reason:

That’s why I have recommended Biotest and their fish oil supplement “Flameout.” It’s high quality and inexpensive in comparison to what you get.

I have actually read some great studies supporting the use of gingko as a memory enhancer. Anyway…the fact that you took fish oil and “felt better” should tell you something. Listen to your body.

[quote]Overall you have to do what you think is healthiest. I would love to be proven without a doubt that fish oil is a healthy supplement that will promote health and longevity, but how much is too much? I eat fish every other day…fatty fish…so is it necessary to take fish oil too for optimal health?
[/quote]

As long as you are careful of the types of fish that you eat I think you are in fine shape doing what you are doing.

Here is something for your consideration:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html

I on the other hand only eat fish maybe once per week. So a supplement like “Flameout” makes a great deal of sense for me.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
ZEB wrote:
The only way that you will run into trouble consuming large amounts of Fish Oil is if you buy the cheap brands. Many times we read on this very site about someone purchasing their supplements at Wal-Mart and bragging about all of the money that they saved. I always assume that these are younger guys who have not yet woken up to the reality that you get what you pay for.

The highly touted major brands by reputable companies such as “Flameout” by Biotest will only improve your health in many ways.

I have been taking 6G to 9G of Fish Oil daily for about 6 years now and my blood lipid profile has improved because of it. I have a higher HDL (good cholesterol) and a lower LDL (bad cholesterol) as a direct result of my fish oil consumption. This is something that training alone could not produce.

On top of that fish oil acts as a blood thinner.

Why is that good?

Well, some very smart folks attribute thinner blood to less of a chance of blood clotting and heart attack. That’s one reason that most doctors recommend taking one baby aspirin per day, as it thins the blood.

I guess doctors don’t always get it wrong huh?

Seriously, if you consume fish oil and a little vitamin E most can skip the aspirin and have a great amount of heart protection naturally!

And then there are the actual bodybuilding benefits of fish oil… I could go on but I won’t.

I personally feel that the greatest product that Biotest has yet to deliver to the market place is “Flameout.” And I highly recommend it. It’s not just a bodybuilding supplement but as a health aid to assist you in living a longer and healthier life.

All the best,

Zeb

The one weakness of this board is the constant promotion of the supplements that it sells. I have no idea what Flameout is (nor do I care) but there are high quality pharmaceutical brands out there such as Carlson’s, Ascenta Health, Genestra, etc. No, you can’t buy these at Wal-Mart.

You can run into huge problems with large doses of fish oil. There is a threshold of benefits and those can quickly turn into things that will harm your body. That’s great that your health has improved, etc. but having a high ration of omega 3’s can be alot worse for you than the same for omega 6’s.

I’m not trying to knock fish oil at all, but I just don’t think it’s proven that it’s safe long term.

[/quote]

Neither has Ketsup, but most people still use it. Nothing is safe long term in large quantities in todays society. We have poluted most every thing.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
jeep7588 wrote:
Not sure of your backround but fish oil is not something that is akin to a new antioxidant found in tea leaves.

It is the final endproduct of omega-3 oils that your body processes to EPA and DHA both are essential to human life meaning they must be aquired through the diet, just like essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals.

Using fish oils bypasses the conversion process in your body making them more effecient to use than something like flax oil which is broken down by your body into EPA and DHA.

Also human digestion is not equivalent to a convection oven or a frying pan and must good brands ie. Flameout have vitamin E in the capsules themselves to prevent breakdown and as always they should be stored in the fridge.

Lastly the idea behind increasing the Omega-3 ratio in the diet is because it has been decreased in modern diets do to farm animals being grain fed versus letting them graze primarily on grass. And through the processing of foods. Also omega-6 fatty acids are very prevalent in most average people diets. This stuff has been said long before Biotest ever had a website or sold Flameout.

No one is saying to fry your fish oil and have 6 tablespoons per day, everything in moderation 6-10 capsules is not going to kill you. Wether it helps or how much, who knows most studies say yes so I will take my chances,not overdo it and use my fish oils.

Jeep

The amount of EPA/DHA that is essential to human life is so small that it’s probably impossible not to get from regular food. Secondly, how do you know that your body isn’t more efficient at actually breaking things down instead of getting them in straight pure form. Do you know that either fat or carb cofactors are required for optimal protein absorption?

How do you know that some other cofactors aren’t required in fish to optimally utilize its fats? Perhaps antioxidants, saturated fats,etc? What i’m saying is that you are taking a highly concentrated processed from of a single fatty acid and claiming that it’s all positive and no negative, or at least the positive outweigh the benefits.

I wouldn’t put to much faith into the ‘studies’ as they probably come from the same sources that claim that a high carb diet is the healthiest and provides “energy” so eat lots of bread and pasta! What a disaster.

You’re last paragraph said it well. Who knows. You are taking this stuff on blind faith that it is good, and not harmful.

I think i’ll just stick to food that we were designed to eat.

PS. What do cows eat in the wild in the winter when there is no grass?

[/quote]

I referenced them being essential to make the point they are not ginseng or some newlly discovered antioxidant. Also the amount needed to sustain body function versus the amount a weight lifter or athlete needs is to completely different animals. If all I did was lay around all day I would not be taking in nearly as much protien as I do now.

Do you know the co-factors involved?

I am going off the cuff if you want to look the process up go ahead. It has been studied and is an ineffectient process and you still need the “raw material” from Omega-3 containg oils to do it and the enzyme that does it is in the body, ie. the body makes it. Interestingly some people have problems with the conversion process and have all kinds of problems.

If you take a high quality multivitamin/mineral supp. and eat how peole like Dr. Berardi advise to on this site you will not be missing any co-factors. No one is saying to live off supps alone not even on this site.

6-10 grams of fish oil is not even one tablespoon of oil, ie. a tablespoon of olive oil is 14 grams. So unless it is purely a poison to my body I think I will be ok.

Your right nothing is all positive or all negative that is why nobody is saying to take 10 tablespoonfuls. Concentrated means instead of having to take 10 horsepills I only have to take 4. And compared to the total amount of fat intake in your diet it is not a very big amount.

Good luck getting absolute proof on anything in life. Other than Death and Taxes there is not much. And believe me there is not much absolute proof in science and anyone that claims absolute proof should be looked at with suspect in science. However the majority of evidence supports fish oil intake as being beneficial. So I do not consider taking it an act of “blind faith.”

P.S. Cows eat hay in the winter along with grain that is stored away because they have been domesticated for a few thousand years…Other ruminates like deer have to forage in the winter and if there not good at that they usally starve to death. Wonder what wild Buffalo eat in the winter? Got it maybe there are corn feeders set up for them. Nah that is just for the deer in Texas.

Jeep

Jeep

[quote]ZEB wrote:
PaleoMuscle wrote:

You’re right – studies are probably not very effective. I guess this is where common sense comes into play. Overall, you have to read into both the pros and cons and experiment on yourself.

And really that was my original point.

However, just because you have had benefits (feeling good, reduced arthritis, whatever…) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for you.

Hold on there. It does not mean that it’s bad for you either.

In fact, unlike drugs when you consume a natural supplement and it does in fact have some sort of (almost) immediate positive benefit that is usually a sign that it is good for you, both short and long term.

As opposed to a drug which might immediately stop the pain but at the same time may cause heart problems. (See viox studies)

I tend to look more at the negative facets due to the fact that there is typically vested interests ($$$) in hyping and promoting these things. From my research, and common sense I have concluded that supplements should be looked at with suspect eyes. If you were to believe what is hyped you would literally have to go to your nearest health store and buy 1 of everything.

I can argree with you here. That’s one reason why I have researched many supplement companies and am careful to only consume supplements from reputable sources.

Here’s the part that you don’t like for some reason:

That’s why I have recommended Biotest and their fish oil supplement “Flameout.” It’s high quality and inexpensive in comparison to what you get.

Now, I have been suckered into ginseng, gingko, coral calcium, etc. etc. ad nauseum and felt nothing. I have felt better with fish oil but have researched that it’s because of bad stuff occuring in the body.

I have actually read some great studies supporting the use of gingko as a memory enhancer. Anyway…the fact that you took fish oil and “felt better” should tell you something. Listen to your body.

Overall you have to do what you think is healthiest. I would love to be proven without a doubt that fish oil is a healthy supplement that will promote health and longevity, but how much is too much? I eat fish every other day…fatty fish…so is it necessary to take fish oil too for optimal health?

As long as you are careful of the types of fish that you eat I think you are in fine shape doing what you are doing.

Here is something for your consideration:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html

I on the other hand only eat fish maybe once per week. So a supplement like “Flameout” makes a great deal of sense for me.

[/quote]

I just looked up Flameout. I was surprised to see the higher DHA content. Have you read The Omega Rx by Dr. Barry Sears? He clearly states that a EPA:DHA ratio should be 2:1 and i’ve read stuff that claim even higher EPA:DHA ratios to be even more beneficial. The highest i’ve seen for more “therapeutic” effects is Ascenta Health’s 3:1 EPA:DHA but online you can find even up to 7:1. So you see, everyone has their own marketing gimmick.

Makes sense to experiment and see how you feel, but some of the stuff i’ve been reading just makes me double think things a little more.

No one did answer the one guy’s post re: just how good it is that it’s so processed/refined. Maybe this “deoderization” takes away the smell of rancidity too? Once again, this oil is heated to high temp’s and all polyunsat’s are highly unstable.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
ZEB wrote:
PaleoMuscle wrote:

You’re right – studies are probably not very effective. I guess this is where common sense comes into play. Overall, you have to read into both the pros and cons and experiment on yourself.

And really that was my original point.

However, just because you have had benefits (feeling good, reduced arthritis, whatever…) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for you.

Hold on there. It does not mean that it’s bad for you either.

In fact, unlike drugs when you consume a natural supplement and it does in fact have some sort of (almost) immediate positive benefit that is usually a sign that it is good for you, both short and long term.

As opposed to a drug which might immediately stop the pain but at the same time may cause heart problems. (See viox studies)

I tend to look more at the negative facets due to the fact that there is typically vested interests ($$$) in hyping and promoting these things. From my research, and common sense I have concluded that supplements should be looked at with suspect eyes. If you were to believe what is hyped you would literally have to go to your nearest health store and buy 1 of everything.

I can argree with you here. That’s one reason why I have researched many supplement companies and am careful to only consume supplements from reputable sources.

Here’s the part that you don’t like for some reason:

That’s why I have recommended Biotest and their fish oil supplement “Flameout.” It’s high quality and inexpensive in comparison to what you get.

Now, I have been suckered into ginseng, gingko, coral calcium, etc. etc. ad nauseum and felt nothing. I have felt better with fish oil but have researched that it’s because of bad stuff occuring in the body.

I have actually read some great studies supporting the use of gingko as a memory enhancer. Anyway…the fact that you took fish oil and “felt better” should tell you something. Listen to your body.

Overall you have to do what you think is healthiest. I would love to be proven without a doubt that fish oil is a healthy supplement that will promote health and longevity, but how much is too much? I eat fish every other day…fatty fish…so is it necessary to take fish oil too for optimal health?

As long as you are careful of the types of fish that you eat I think you are in fine shape doing what you are doing.

Here is something for your consideration:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html

I on the other hand only eat fish maybe once per week. So a supplement like “Flameout” makes a great deal of sense for me.

I just looked up Flameout. I was surprised to see the higher DHA content. Have you read The Omega Rx by Dr. Barry Sears? He clearly states that a EPA:DHA ratio should be 2:1 and i’ve read stuff that claim even higher EPA:DHA ratios to be even more beneficial. The highest i’ve seen for more “therapeutic” effects is Ascenta Health’s 3:1 EPA:DHA but online you can find even up to 7:1. So you see, everyone has their own marketing gimmick.

Makes sense to experiment and see how you feel, but some of the stuff i’ve been reading just makes me double think things a little more.

No one did answer the one guy’s post re: just how good it is that it’s so processed/refined. Maybe this “deoderization” takes away the smell of rancidity too? Once again, this oil is heated to high temp’s and all polyunsat’s are highly unstable.

[/quote]

Have you ever heard of cold expeller processed oil in all of you research? Molecular distillation? Come on are you just bull shitting around here?

I am not getting pissed off if that is your intention actully this is kind of fun tedious but fun.

Truthfully I am conservative with my supps as well and use a multi, fish oil, creatine and whey for extra protein.

[quote]PaleoMuscle wrote:
ZEB wrote:
PaleoMuscle wrote:

You’re right – studies are probably not very effective. I guess this is where common sense comes into play. Overall, you have to read into both the pros and cons and experiment on yourself.

And really that was my original point.

However, just because you have had benefits (feeling good, reduced arthritis, whatever…) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for you.

Hold on there. It does not mean that it’s bad for you either.

In fact, unlike drugs when you consume a natural supplement and it does in fact have some sort of (almost) immediate positive benefit that is usually a sign that it is good for you, both short and long term.

As opposed to a drug which might immediately stop the pain but at the same time may cause heart problems. (See viox studies)

I tend to look more at the negative facets due to the fact that there is typically vested interests ($$$) in hyping and promoting these things. From my research, and common sense I have concluded that supplements should be looked at with suspect eyes. If you were to believe what is hyped you would literally have to go to your nearest health store and buy 1 of everything.

I can argree with you here. That’s one reason why I have researched many supplement companies and am careful to only consume supplements from reputable sources.

Here’s the part that you don’t like for some reason:

That’s why I have recommended Biotest and their fish oil supplement “Flameout.” It’s high quality and inexpensive in comparison to what you get.

Now, I have been suckered into ginseng, gingko, coral calcium, etc. etc. ad nauseum and felt nothing. I have felt better with fish oil but have researched that it’s because of bad stuff occuring in the body.

I have actually read some great studies supporting the use of gingko as a memory enhancer. Anyway…the fact that you took fish oil and “felt better” should tell you something. Listen to your body.

Overall you have to do what you think is healthiest. I would love to be proven without a doubt that fish oil is a healthy supplement that will promote health and longevity, but how much is too much? I eat fish every other day…fatty fish…so is it necessary to take fish oil too for optimal health?

As long as you are careful of the types of fish that you eat I think you are in fine shape doing what you are doing.

Here is something for your consideration:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html

I on the other hand only eat fish maybe once per week. So a supplement like “Flameout” makes a great deal of sense for me.

I just looked up Flameout. I was surprised to see the higher DHA content. Have you read The Omega Rx by Dr. Barry Sears? He clearly states that a EPA:DHA ratio should be 2:1 and i’ve read stuff that claim even higher EPA:DHA ratios to be even more beneficial. The highest i’ve seen for more “therapeutic” effects is Ascenta Health’s 3:1 EPA:DHA but online you can find even up to 7:1. So you see, everyone has their own marketing gimmick.[/quote]

Again, it seems that you would rather knock Biotest products than actually have a converstaion. This makes you look suspect.

And you also seem so skeptical of everything I wonder what sort of training shoe you wear to the gym.

I have seen all of those big bad Nike type commercials…You can’t buy into all of that hype right?

[quote]jeep7588 wrote:

Have you ever heard of cold expeller processed oil in all of you research? Molecular distillation? Come on are you just bull shitting around here?

I am not getting pissed off if that is your intention actully this is kind of fun tedious but fun.

Truthfully I am conservative with my supps as well and use a multi, fish oil, creatine and whey for extra protein.
[/quote]

Ofcourse i’ve heard of it. It subjects the oil to about 160-180 degrees centigrade through steam right?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Again, it seems that you would rather knock Biotest products than actually have a converstaion. This makes you look suspect.

And you also seem so skeptical of everything I wonder what sort of training shoe you wear to the gym.

I have seen all of those big bad Nike type commercials…You can’t buy into all of that hype right?
[/quote]

I’m not trying to knock it, and it’s not like i’m trying to sell something else.

Hell yeah i’m skeptical of everything. Why shouldn’t I be? Surprises you since most suckers buy into the hype yeah? I have wasted enough on useless supplements and even the ones that “work” i’m sorry, but I have to question the safety of them.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Do you know the long term effects of:

-Lifting weights?

-Endurance training?

-Stress?

-Massage?

-Vitamin C?

-The “B” vitamins?

-Tylenol?

[/quote]

I do. So does anyone else with any formal training in physiology or pharmacology.

Or, hell, knows a few people over 70.

Have a good one,

-Dan

Paleo,

I’m confused. You say that taking fish oils make you feel better, and then are trying to prove that fish oils may not be healthy? Isn’t there some dissonance in what you’re doing here?

Is not feeling better a measure of health? I think it would be a good idea to compare other markers of health, off/on supplemented polyunsaturates and saturates. Get some blood work done. What ever works right? It’s very hard to apply research done on a population to a specific individual. There’s that much variation.

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Do you know the long term effects of:

-Lifting weights?

-Endurance training?

-Stress?

-Massage?

-Vitamin C?

-The “B” vitamins?

-Tylenol?

I do. So does anyone else with any formal training in physiology or pharmacology.

Or, hell, knows a few people over 70.

Have a good one,

-Dan[/quote]

My point was, how many studies have been done regarding the long term effects of the above…

How many studies have been done on the long term effects of constantly worrying and stressing and over analysing every single little detail of every single thing you consume?