T Nation

Fiscal Cliff Deal Reached

What does everyone think of the new deal?

http://nation.foxnews.com/fiscal-cliff/2013/01/01/cliff-averted-fiscal-crisis-deal-passes-senate-awaits-final-approval

The part that I find the most amusing is this:

And the payroll tax holiday is now over so that every single person who has a job even for minimum wage will be paying higher taxes as well.

But Obama said he wouldn’t raise taxes on regular folks!

Another lying politician.

As for small business if they make more than 450-k their taxes are going up. And as a small business owner my response, other than to not grow my business for another four years, is to cut my employee’s wages by about half of my total tax hike, it’s called “shared pain” and they know it’s coming. Each employee will make less in 2013 than they did in 2012 (unless they make it up in productivity bonuses).

The good part is no one is complaining as the economy is so bad that they feel fortunate to have a job. And I bet small business people across the country will have their own variation of my plan. Did Obama think the response would be something different? Ha…I guess Harvard Law Professor’s just don’t understand small business.

But don’t fear, those of you who are on unemployment just got extended another year for doing absolutely nothing. So your vote for Obama was a good one, at least for now.

As the federal government grows, and the job creators diminish, and democrats pat themselves on the back for carving out such a cowardly deal we once again kick the can down the road…

Welcome to Obamanation!

Damn it ZEB, I was just about to start this thread. Oh, well. Here is the post I was working on (I just copied and pasted it:

For those who are interested, here is the fiscal cliff deal that has passed the Senate and is up for a vote in the House in just over an hour:

Some things that I like about it:

  • It guarantees some increased revenue from tax increases and the removal of some deductions, although I would have liked to see more.

  • It kept the deduction for tuition payments and other college related expenses intact. I think this is a very good thing and will prevent several extremely brilliant students of mine from dropping out this year.

  • Deductions for businesses conducting research and development were kept intact. The US is already falling behind in the scientific realm, and this will help prevent more damage to that.

What I do not like about it:
Sequestration was put off until March 1 and I think it should be addressed sooner. Actually, I think it should be addressed now. I would like to see how much, if any government funding for scientific research is going to be cut.

I would be very interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of the other members on here.

Edit: some of my original post was cut off when copying and pasting.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

Some things that I like about it:

  • It guarantees some increased revenue from tax increases and the removal of some deductions, although I would have liked to see more.[/quote]

Yes, that is a wonderful thing because everyone knows that we’re in trouble not because the government is a melting pot of waste and fraud, but because we don’t tax people enough. Yes…RAISE THOSE FREAKING TAXES until we break the backs of every job creator in the country!

Excellent decision as everyone knows the more money that the government takes from job creators the more that those job creators will have to begin or expand their business which in turn expands the economy as about 65% of all new jobs come from small business. So taking money out of their hands was an EXCEPTIONAL IDEA! Oh wait…

This time however we can blame John Boehner as well as Obama. The House republicans needed to hold the line and they didn’t do it. Obama owned this mess, now it is somewhat shared.

Yes, heaven forbid that there be less college students. We need far more people who don’t belong in college to actually be in college because of give-away programs and minority quota’s.

Okay…that was harsh. As you say, your brighter students should be where they are. But I give talks to business classes on college campuses occasionally and I swear from personal observation the average college kid is about as bright as the average high school student of 20 years ago.

What’s good about the plan?

Nothing, not one damn thing. As I said above the cowards kicked the can down the road and on the way attacked those of us who are actually trying to make the economy work.

It is truly a horrible plan and will leave us on the brink of another recession.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

As the federal government grows, and the job creators diminish, and democrats pat themselves on the back for carving out such a cowardly deal
[/quote]

I find this unacceptable.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Damn it ZEB, I was just about to start this thread. Oh, well. Here is the post I was working on (I just copied and pasted it:

For those who are interested, here is the fiscal cliff deal that has passed the Senate and is up for a vote in the House in just over an hour:

Some things that I like about it:

  • It guarantees some increased revenue from tax increases and the removal of some deductions, although I would have liked to see more.

  • It kept the deduction for tuition payments and other college related expenses intact. I think this is a very good thing and will prevent several extremely brilliant students of mine from dropping out this year.

  • Deductions for businesses conducting research and development were kept intact. The US is already falling behind in the scientific realm, and this will help prevent more damage to that.

What I do not like about it:
Sequestration was put off until March 1 and I think it should be addressed sooner. Actually, I think it should be addressed now. I would like to see how much, if any government funding for scientific research is going to be cut.

I would be very interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of the other members on here.

Edit: some of my original post was cut off when copying and pasting.[/quote]

The fiscal cliff was started by Obama. He showed his willingness to cut spending. So much for him being a progressive. I mean really not a very good socialist, which is what he is referred to often on corporate media and the brainwashed people on this forum.

And I don’t think most people who are on unemployment are lazy. They want to work but there are no jobs and cutting social spending will only contract the economy and make problems worse. Look at Europe!

The only thing this ‘deal’ proves is that all Democrats can do is tax and spend and all Republicans can do is bend over and be ass-fucked while both ass-fuck the retarded electorate that voted all of them in office.

Politicians kick the can down the road and are being applauded for avoiding the “disaster.”

Happy New Year all, seems to be the exact same as the rest. When the shit completely hits the fan with the debt (enjoy the next 15 years folks, it’s going to get real bad after that) whatever party is in power might be completely destroyed.

Both sides have pushed the rock towards the edge continuously and one of them is going to be unlucky enough to be in power when it falls. That side will take all the blame even though they both did it.

Fuck both parties. Not that they were any different to begin with.

I’m ready to quit following this shit. Nothing EVER changes. It’s like watching a football game where you know the plays both teams are going to run, the yardage they get, and if they will score or not. It’s just fucking boring. Shame it’s so important.

I’d say throw them all out, but we’ll just replace them with other dumbasses from the same parties who will do the exact same shit so what’s the point?

[quote]H factor wrote:
Politicians kick the can down the road and are being applauded for avoiding the “disaster.”

Happy New Year all, seems to be the exact same as the rest. When the shit completely hits the fan with the debt (enjoy the next 15 years folks, it’s going to get real bad after that) whatever party is in power might be completely destroyed.

Both sides have pushed the rock towards the edge continuously and one of them is going to be unlucky enough to be in power when it falls. That side will take all the blame even though they both did it.

Fuck both parties. Not that they were any different to begin with.

I’m ready to quit following this shit. Nothing EVER changes. It’s like watching a football game where you know the plays both teams are going to run, the yardage they get, and if they will score or not. It’s just fucking boring. Shame it’s so important.

I’d say throw them all out, but we’ll just replace them with other dumbasses from the same parties who will do the exact same shit so what’s the point? [/quote]

The fiscal cliff is absolute bullshit meant to scare the uninformed public.

Fuck both parties. Not that they were any different to begin with. Agreed.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

As the federal government grows, and the job creators diminish, and democrats pat themselves on the back for carving out such a cowardly deal
[/quote]

I find this unacceptable.
[/quote]

You don’t like Congressmen getting a raise to 174-k per year when Obama has repeatedly said “we all need to do a little belt tightening”. That’s strange neither do most people.

It’s all part of the hypocrisy that is Obama.

He will continue to grow government, in every way, while at the same time taking away from the populace.

Anyone who now doubts that at heart he is a socialist is either an idiot or in denial. The only thing separating his inner most desires from what we actually get is are the House republicans. And while they did a horrible job holding the line on tax hikes trust me when I tell you that it would have been far worse if they did not control the House.

There’s more coming down the pike that is far worse than this. These next four years is where he “fundamentally changes the US.”

So as my doctor told me when I had my annual physical…bend over and try to relax.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

And I don’t think most people who are on unemployment are lazy. They want to work but there are no jobs and cutting social spending will only contract the economy and make problems worse. Look at Europe!
[/quote]

Wow…you make problems worse by cutting social spending? No, you make problems worse by taking money out of the hands of job creators as Obama just did with this fiscal cliff quick fix.

Also…

The majority of low wage earners would rather sit on their butts and collect $415 per week than work for $12- $15 per hour. I know it because I see it every day in my own business. And I also hear about it from other business people who have the same complaint.

Obama is a disease and this country has caught it and it will spread!

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

And I don’t think most people who are on unemployment are lazy. They want to work but there are no jobs and cutting social spending will only contract the economy and make problems worse. Look at Europe!
[/quote]

Wow…you make problems worse by cutting social spending? No, you make problems worse by taking money out of the hands of job creators as Obama just did with this fiscal cliff quick fix.

Also…

The majority of low wage earners would rather sit on their butts and collect $415 per week than work for $12- $15 per hour. I know it because I see it every day in my own business. And I also hear about it from other business people who have the same complaint.

Obama is a disease and this country has caught it and it will spread![/quote]

Yeah and 12 years of tax cuts on the rich has worked out so well for the economy. The evidence is right in front of your face and it has been for over a decade and you refuse to believe it because you worship a god called right-wing ideology. Truth and evidence do not matter to people like you. What matters is who’s side is winning. You mold the evidence to fit your own ideology.

And where do you get $415 a week? Here in Florida it is $275.

Obama has made many concessions on the public safety net and bailed out the top 10th of 1 percent. Anyone who thinks that those are the actions of a socialist refuse to see how brainwashed they are by the corporate media and years of the business class propaganda.

No big business monopolies is the disease and both parties are owned by them and that is the disease.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

Yeah and 12 years of tax cuts on the rich has worked out so well for the economy.[/quote]

That is a blatant misstatement. The kind that lead people to believe that the Bush tax cuts were only for the wealthy.

1- The Bush tax cuts were an across the board cut in taxes for ALL Working people.

2- If they were so bad why didn’t Obama get rid of them when he had both houses of Congress democrat? He kept them because he knew it was good for the economy.

3- Even with the new fiscal cliff laws the Bush tax cuts remain for all those families making under 450-k per year. If they are so bad didn’t he get rid of them?

4- Bush created almost 4 million new jobs with those tax cuts. Naturally the the world wide recession ate that up. But prior to that he was doing fine.

Unemployment is based upon how much the person who is currently unemployed was making. It could be $415 or $275.

As I said the republican House at least kept him within the grounds of sanity. Look what he did when both houses of Congress were democrat…NATIONAL HEALTH CARE! and that my friend is socialism!

Now tells us all again how taking money out of the hands of job creators is going to create more jobs.

LOL it really would be funny if it were not so very sad.

People like you walk around and actually believe that it is government that creates jobs.

My gosh!

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

Yeah and 12 years of tax cuts on the rich has worked out so well for the economy.[/quote]

That is a blatant misstatement. The kind that lead people to believe that the Bush tax cuts were only for the wealthy.

1- The Bush tax cuts were an across the board cut in taxes for ALL Working people.

2- If they were so bad why didn’t Obama get rid of them when he had both houses of Congress democrat? He kept them because he knew it was good for the economy.

3- Even with the new fiscal cliff laws the Bush tax cuts remain for all those families making under 450-k per year. If they are so bad didn’t he get rid of them?

4- Bush created almost 4 million new jobs with those tax cuts. Naturally the the world wide recession ate that up. But prior to that he was doing fine.

Unemployment is based upon how much the person who is currently unemployed was making. It could be $415 or $275.

As I said the republican House at least kept him within the grounds of sanity. Look what he did when both houses of Congress were democrat…NATIONAL HEALTH CARE! and that my friend is socialism!

Now tells us all again how taking money out of the hands of job creators is going to create more jobs.

LOL it really would be funny if it were not so very sad.

People like you walk around and actually believe that it is government that creates jobs.

My gosh!

[/quote]

1.) The rich got the overwhelming majority of the tax cuts.

2.) Obama didn’t get rid of them because he is a corporate owned dummy.

3.) I am talking about tax cuts for the ultra rich not for middle and poor class people.

4.) According to the Labor Bureau of Statistics W created 1,095,000 jobs. Not 4 MM. A huge difference!

Let me ask you a question ZEB. Do you think Nixon was a socialist?

I disagree with your premise that rich people are job creators. You walk around believing you are some kind of demigod. Get over yourself!

The economy is spurred on by demand not rich people. If the middle class and poor do not have the money to spend on goods and services the economy contracts. No amount of rich people can save this country. It is the middle class and poor who keep the economy running.

The government can and does create jobs along with other things. The internet was conceived and incubated in the dynamic public sector. Not the private sector!

Just across Bloomie:

*HOUSE REPUBLICANS ABANDON EFFORT TO ADD SPENDING CUTS TO BILL

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

1.) The rich got the overwhelming majority of the tax cuts.[/quote]

One more time IT WAS A 5% ACROSS THE BOARD TAX CUT FOR ALL TAX PAYERS! Completely fair!

Expalain this corporate owned fixation that some young paulies have. I’d love to hear it.

The ultra rich earned their money and they don’t deserve to be punished for not only doing well but helping the country by employing people. It is not logical. You cannot harm the job creators and expect employment to pick upt. Sheesh!

I disagree, however even if your figure is correct (which it is not) that is 1,095,000 more jobs than the socialist idiot Obama has created.

No, just a bad President and far too liberal.

You make a good point, it is the poor people that create the jobs. Just the other day I saw a wino out on the street begging for money. I bet he has 100 to 200 people working for him in his um…factory. LOL…sorry to burst your bubble Skippy but I am a job creator. You don’t like it? That’s called class envy. Go march up and down on wall street and whine like a little baby girl.

Fact: Small business creates about 65% of all new jobs. So get the fuck over yourself jealous bastard!

LOL you are a comedian right? Tell me Einstein where do all these people get money to by goods and services?

Ready?

They work for some business entity, or the government which has grown under socialist Obama. However, as I said about 65% of all people work for small business. If you harm them they will not expand and there goes the recovery.

Don’t be dense. “Rich people” are the ones who employ people…who are the ones who spend money which expands the economy. I am not talking about some knuckle head who inherited a fortune and sits on his ass drinking martini’s. That is a tiny fraction of “rich people”. Most are small business people like me who employ…ready? About 65% of all who work. Go google it.

When you harm the job creators you harm the economy!

Got it?

[quote]The government can and does create jobs along with other things.
[/quote]

And who supports the government with tax dollars? The poor people? Nooo…the good tax fairy? Nooo. RICH PEOPLE! The top 10% pay 70% of all income tax. I know you are envious of the wealthy and apparently those who own their own business however facts are facts so…you’re going to have to live with it.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
I would like to see how much, if any government funding for scientific research is going to be cut.
[/quote]

What are your thoughts on how science funding will likely be affected? Graduate students tend to be somewhat shielded from the inner workings of securing funding, so if you could describe what would likely happen to research-oriented programs if funding were cut, it’d be greatly appreciated.

When Congressional Reps and Dems agree on anything, it means the citizens are getting ass fucked.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

1.) The rich got the overwhelming majority of the tax cuts.[/quote]

Such as?

Please explain the progressive tax system in your answer.

Without google, can you even name 3 additional changes to the IRC other than qualified dividends and long term capital gains that came about in the Bush era?

I don’t believe anything is this simple, and for someone with your views you swallow up enough propoganda and bullshit “reporting” as anyone you call out for doing so.

The fact is, no one is getting to that level of office without selling out. Selling out to corporate interests and the interests of fellow life long “statesmen”. Just to get your name on the funding list you owe more favors than you can re-pay. By the time you collect enough money to spend on a primary commercial, enough party people have you in their pockets where your ideas aren’t your won anymore.

He is all about money and power, calling him a “corporate owned dummy” is a lazy thinking waste of bandwith. Obama is anything but a dummy, anything.

Such as? If your talking about them, how about some details?

While the rhetoric around this idea is often abused by both sides, it is true. No, every start up isn’t born in the mind of a rich person, but the funding comes from, get this, people with money…

We live in a complex society with many moving parts. Rich people play an important role in the life style you are accustomed to. Get over it.

Lazy rhetoric at its best. Ignoring basic economics at its worst.

[quote]The government can and does create jobs along with other things. The internet was conceived and incubated in the dynamic public sector. Not the private sector!

[/quote]

no, the government didn’t create a single job involving the internet in the private sector. It released a technology into the private sector and the private sector created jobs to use the technology.

Que “semantics” post from pitt.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

No big business monopolies is the disease and both parties are owned by them and that is the disease.
[/quote]

There are laws that prevent businesses from becoming monopolies. That’s the point of businesses: competition to have a high productivity and a good quality / price ratio. Maybe a business monopoly might exist, but it’s the exception…

The vast majority, if not all, of the monopolies that exist in the world are government-run leading to inefficiency due to the lack of competition. Competing with the government is impossible.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I really do not understand how you can speak of “corporate media”. The vast majority of the media has a huge left wing bias…

Well, it costs me and my wife about (using a calculator and guessing since I don’t have the actual law in front of me) about $72,000 per year.

I give 10% of my income to the Shuls I go to and 10% to various programs that help people get ahead (e.g., Boys and Girls Club is the primary one).

I will fund my shuls, and not fund the Boys and Girls Club.

Pretty much the reason I am picking this is 99% of the parents who pick up their kids at the Boys and Girls club voted for Obama, going by the shirts, signs, etc.

So Obama can go support them. Elections have consequences.