T Nation

First Tren Cycle Gyno with normal E2 and Prolactin Levels


#1

I am currently in in the middle of Week 13 of a 14 week tren cycle. It is my first time using tren, but not my first cycle.
Tren: 400mg/wk
Test: 150mg/wk
Adex: .5mg/wk
HCG: 500iu/wk
HGH: 16iu/wk
T3: 100mcg/day, 6 weeks on, 2 weeks off, 6 weeks on
Clen: 80/mcg/day, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, for the whole cycle

I broke up my injections to 3 times a week (M, W, F). I kept the test low partly because I read in lots of forum discussions that test equal to or higher than the tren dose is more likely to cause libido problems and other undesirable side effects. Of course that is debatable. But I also did it because I am acne sensitive and was trying to limit how bad my acne would be.

I had my e2 tested about 3 weeks into the cycle and it was 124.7 pg/ml which is crazy high for only a few weeks in and considering how low my test was and that Tren doesn’t aromatize is most likely what I found from perusing the forums a common problem with LabCorp E2 testing when Tren in present. Tren throws off the E2 numbers because of the particular method they use to measure E2. Others have said that Quest uses a different method and it isn’t skewed by the presence of Tren.

I had prolactin tested week 10 of the cycle and the results came back 13.7 ng/ml. The range was 4-15.2. So I wasn’t high. However…

I have developed seriously puffy nipples and hardness under the nipples. How can this be given my low test dose with taking an AI, in range prolactin, and the fact that tren doesn’t aromatize? Does anyone know what an optimal prolactin level should be? Could 13.7 which is on the upper end of the normal range still cause gyno?

So starting beginning of 12 I started taking Letro and Nolva to combat the gyno. I’ve noticed a some reduction of the gyno so far.

I also lost a decent amount of weight this cycle. I’m down to about 12% bodyfat I was at about 16% at the beginning (though that is with those hand held electrode devices, which I don’t really trust). From how I look in the mirror I have a lot more definition and I’ve put on size. I’ve lost about 4 inches in my waist. I started at 199lbs and I am now at 190lbs. Was as low as 186lbs at one point, but I the tren has helped me put on a good amount of muscle mass. It just took a little bit longer to kick in than the fat loss. Is it possible that I had pre-existing gyno and the fat loss has made it more visible.

Any advice to help problem solve this mystery would be welcome. Tren is awesome and I’d like to be able to use it again in the future, but I need to figure out how to avoid this same problem in the future.


#2

Try to get near E2=22pg/ml

Note that my references to testosterone below do not include tren as tren–>E2 does not happen.

Anastrozole is a T competitive drug that needs its serum level to match FT/Bio-T levels. We know from TRT work that most need ~ 1mg anastrozole for every 100mg T ester. However there are some guys, not rare who are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th that amount [not you].

SERMs do not decrease E2 levels and higher doses that lead to higher LH levels are known to create high intratesticular T–>E2 and competitive AI’s cannot control that.

You should try 0.5mg anastrozole at time of each T injection. But I suspect that will not be enough VS your current E2. Serum E2 is a balance of T–>E2 aromatization VS liver clearance and one needs to consider that liver clearance is impaired. You should get AST/ALT tested. Those can be high from training and sore or non-recovered muscles. So you would need to avoid that for a while to get meaningful results.

If you do anastrozole as suggested above and get for example E2=35pg/ml and target is 22, increase dose by a factor of 35/22. Note that same approach will reduce dose as well as needed. If you change T dose change AI by same factor to hold current E2.

T–>E2 rates are not delayed, thinking otherwise is folly.

By letting E2 get high, you are expected to have higher SHBG generation in the liver, reduces FT and increases non-bioavailable SHBG+T.

The half-life of anastrozole means that a change to a steady dose takes ~6 days to reach terminal serum levels. So there is a time delay. Making fast dose changes based on how you feel at the moment is a bad idea. However in this case, you could front load with 1mg as first dose of the new dosing.

E2 liver clearance can be reduce by any drug etc that competes for the same enzyme pathways. So one can change the game one way or the other with changes to those other substances.

HGH: GH–>IGF-1 in the liver is rate constrained. You will get better results with more time under the curve from slower delivery. Subq is better than IM and injecting twice a day should be better as well.

hCG is best subq EOD.

Fat loss seems good, suggesting that thyroid is not holding you back. To support proper thyroid function you need to be using iodized salt. Sea salt and other natural salts should not be used.


#3

Thanks for the advice.

The letrozole has dramatically reduced my gyno. Though I think I crashed my E2 as a result. So I’ll be transitioning to anastrozole since I’m done with my tren cycle and will be cruising with just test for a while.

So my last liver test which was about 4 weeks ago had my AST at 62 IU/L range of 0-40 and my ALT at 55 IU/L range of 0-44. I haven’t used methalyized orals in the past 8 months. I only have about 2 drinks a week. What do you think about those levels. High just to high protein intake and regular weight lifting or is it something more to be worried about.

Are the amortization rates of other steroids similar to testosterone mg to mg? Is there a general rule of thumb for the amount of AI for others like EQ or Deca?

Also what difference does it make to dose hcg EOD versus once a week? Is 500iu/wk enough? Does the dose of hcg have to change if you increase testosterone dosage?