T Nation

First Time Stacking, Advice?


#1

31y/o male. 5’9 ~190lbs. 10-11% BF.

Lifting 12+ years, powerlifting 5-6.

Typically eat around 3000 calories, 40P/30C/30F.
Up calories to around 3600 when bulking. 2800 when cutting.

I have a problem with my bench being weak for some reason (trying to address it in a different thread, still need to get a video made) but my main lifts are: Squat 455, Deadlift 560, Bench 245ish.

I’ve run 3 cycles of test only in the past. First was 500mg/week pinning Sunday night/Thursday morning. Second and third were 650, same times.

I’ve never run a stack. I still have about 30ml of Test-C 250 and 40x 1mg Arimidex on hand. I was thinking I’m about ready to run another cycle but I believe I’m ready to try adding another compound. My goal is to add some power and size that I can keep. I would prefer a dryer agent rather than adding a lot of water weight, but I can cope with adding water weight on top of good solid muscle gains and then just running a shred after. I have considered Winstrol for because I know it will not yield much water retention but can have some good strength and muscle gains when stacked with T but I am open to suggestions. I also would not mind advice on dosing. I have done my HW and can determine dosing, PCT, estrogen control, etc. on my own, but I am looking more for some friendly opinions, advice and anecdotal history to help me determine a path for this next cycle.

Also, I have read that some compounds can actually yield greater results at the injection site. While T is not one of those compounds, I’ve read that other compounds will actually trigger more growth in the region which they are injected. Is this actually true or is it a message board myth? I wouldn’t mind pinning shoulders to jump start some new growth in the region.


#2

You said you didn’t want anything wet, but have you considered nandrolone in one form or another? NPP is getting more popular now and a lot of guys are seeing less water retention with that particular water than they did when using deca. Might be worth looking into.

If you’re looking to stay dry I’d say tbol over winstrol, mostly because of the joint issues associated with the latter. If you’re a power lifter you probably don’t want joint pain in your knees while you have 455 on the squat rack.


#3

That’s a good point about Winnie. I’ll take a look at Nandrolone. I believs my lab only had an NPP/TPP blend when I was last browsing. I’ll do my hw on that.

I’m okay with wet results, I just have to remind myself that I’m going to be retaining water and that a cut after will have me looking lean again. I get manorexic fast when I start to look puffy. But I can cope with it. I just have stay focused on the end goal.


#4

Look into eq at 600 a week. There is some
Debate about site specific injections with compounds like test suspension but really for what you want man just keep it simple. Test and eq will give great strength and dry gains.


#5

As far as DRY compounds (none aromatizing compounds) to add size you are limited to Turinabol (good stuff read up I love it!), Winny (really not a big gainer but it can gain), masteron (levels needed to grow are 600mgs a week and up so…), Primo (again need a LOT to grow plus try finding legit is a pain), DiHydroBoldenone DHB aka 1-test (again need high levels and there is issue of sourcing it)

Out of all of those as far as price vs quantity needed vs quality issues then what would you get out of it at the end it leads you to put Turinabol (tbol) at the top of the list. The east Germans used it for their Olympic guys for decades. It is actually the only AAS with massive scientific research backing up lasting athletic performance enhancement well after discontinuation of use. You can actually keep some of the strength and size gains after you never use it again!

Anadrol is TECHNICALLY a dht and dry as in it doesn’t aromatize but it’s a progestenic and you will bloat like crazy. (Supposedly I have never tried it)

If you are looking at DRIER compounds as in less aromatizing then EQ and Nandrolone are good.

EQ is in the testosterone family but it produces nice steady gains once it kicks in. I love the stuff. Dosage can be as low as 300 mgs a week I run 400 mgs and have never been disappointed. Should be easy enough to keep the little bit of extra estrogen under control.

Nandrolone is a 19nor family. Deca or NPP it’s the same hormone just different esters. Also it will get you steady quality gains only you need to be prepared to deal with progestenic side effects. I have run tren also a 19nor and I use 600mgs of vitamin b6 as it helps keep the levels lower. I have never had an issue BUT I live on the border with mexico and can get prami, caper, or bromocriptine in the pharmacies down there. If you go with a nandrolone you need to be able to counter progestenic sides. Those sides include lactating nipples so be warned. Also there is the genetic gamble with nandrolone, you don’t know if you are one of the guys that shutdown LONG TERM from it until after you use it. Also Deca dick but you can counter that so.

I am leaving trenbolone out as an option for your first stack. You can read up but leave that for later, trust me on this.

As far as site growth with given compounds; as far as I know from reading and usage that doesn’t happen. The site might get inflamed which people take as growth but in all actuality it is just where the oil gets absorbed into the blood stream then the liver gets the ester off and THEN it is free to be used by the body.

I think your top two choices for safer first stack are Turinabol or EQ. Read up and see which one looks more appealing to you. EQ is an injection and Turinabol is oral so that might effect your choice.
For disclosure I have only seen the long term shutdown associated with Deca not NPP but really since the only difference is the ester…idk


#6

Thank you for a very informative post. Really appreciate this kind of in depth perspective to help guide me for this first stack. I will definitely look at Tbol and EQ. I know my lab has both.

I’ve run Test C at 500mg/wk (pinning twice week) and 750mg/wk (pin 3x). Where would you put the dose when stacked with another compound. I was thinking 500 or 600. I’m going to do some serious reading on the two compounds. On the one hand oral sounds convenient, but on the flip side I’ve come to sort of appreciate the ritual of pinning when on a cycle and I also wonder about the efficacy of oral compounds. I’ll do the hw.


#7

Depending on which brand I am using I usually go 400 or 500 mgs a week of test. One is a test 250 so two CC’s the other is a 400 so one CC’s. I went to 750 once but didn’t see any extra gains like I was hoping. Basically if you can still gain well at 500 then there is no need to up it especially if you are adding in another compound.

Either way I think a good rule is keep it under or just over a gram a week. You should be more than ok at 500 mg of test a week plus another compound.
If you go with EQ it’s androgenic to anabolic rating is 50:100. So it is just as anabolic as test but only half as androgenic. I see people interpret this as 400 mgs a week of EQ will build the same amount of muscle as 400 mgs of test. Idk about all of that but it should be pretty close. Another thing with EQ I have seen it aromatizes about 20% or so of the rate of test. My point being you shouldn’t need to double your AI if you add an equal amount of Eq to 500 mgs of test. I am not sure how the body chemistry reacts to EQ. I don’t know if your body thinks the extra 500 mgs of EQ is the same as test and then produces the same amount of aromatizing enzyme. For me I usually take about an extra 30-50% of AI but around week 6-8 I have to up it due to water retention from the estrogen. ( I have switched back and forth between arimidex and aromasin depending on what is available cycle to cycle) Come to think about I usually have to do that when the only aromatizing compound is test, up my AI later in the cycle that is.

Turinabol is supposed to only have an anabolic rating of 100 no androgenic rating at all. I don’t see how this can be true with what happened to the women on the east German Olympic teams. Those chics turned into dudes!
A good thing about it is it is rated as a lower toxic oral kind of like anavar. That being said I wouldn’t push using it past 6-8 weeks and thats only with a good liver protector/flusher. You will not need any extra AI with it.

Either choice is a good one i think. As long as you are smart about it.


#8

I think, being my first time stacking compounds, turinabol sounds a bit easier due to not having to tinker with my AI dosing. It’s also less pinning, which I guess is also easier. I’ll run my test at 500mg and run a solid liver protection during the tbol, keep my AI the same. Appreciate the advice.


#9

Wanted to run the following cycle.
Age 30
7% bf
Max Squat 155kgs
Max dead 240kgs
Max bench 160kg
First cycle was 750mg sus 12 weeks

Test prop 100mgs 2ml eod
Nnp 100mgs 1.5ml eod
Camber 0.25 mg every 4 days
Hcg 150 ui EOD
ARMIDEX 0.5 EOD

Diet at moment is strict 50/35/15 2900 cals
No alcohol, drugs or smoking
What you think?


#10

Alright, after considering the advice I received earlier in the thread and doing the research into Tbol, it sounds like a good compound for where I’d like to get, but I also think that I am wanting to add more mass than a compound like Tbol will give me in a 6-8 week cycle.

I’ve looked at Anadrol and a lot of what I’ve read suggests it as a jump starter for a cycle and it sounds like it can give me the kind of mass I’m looking for but from what I’ve read, a lot of those gains can be lost if you’re not following it with another compound.

My question is, would a 12 week cycle that looks like:

1-12 Test E 500mg (250/250)
1-4 Anadrol 100mg ED
7-12 Tbol 25-50mg ED

Be advised for putting on some good mass and keeping most of it? From my own research, the biggest concern I can come up with is ensuring adequate liver support. I’ve also read some conflicting information about Anadrol and AIs.

Is that long enough between Drol and Tbol? Too long?


#11

Looking at it further, I’m now wondering if it wouldn’t be essentially the same idea but better execution if I went with:

Anadrol 100mg/ED wk 1-4
Test E 500mg (mon/thur) wk 1-12
NPP 100mg/EOD wk 4-12 or EQ 500mg

And add anti prolactin along with my AI?


#12

I have always stayed away from anadrol. We have a history of headaches and migraines in the family and anadrol lists headaches as a common side effect.

As far as the AI and anadrol. From what I remember reading anadrol is a DHT based compound yet it is known as being a wet gainer. That’s a direct contradiction. It is not supposed to aromatize. It a progestenic or at least progesterone like effects or stimulations.

Another thing to consider is it is a more toxic oral versus tbol or anavar being less toxic. The only time I ever stacked two orals was with winny and someone gave me their left over anavar. Both were dosed at 30mgs a day and I only had enough for four weeks. You are talking about taking a break between your orals, idk how much stress drol will put on your liver or how long you need to be safe running another oral. If you said anavar and tbol with your stated break and the dosage was reasonable I might even risk it but I just have not read enough on drol, liver rebound, and time frames to weigh in.

The alternative to anadrol it dianabol but then you just have three different test based hormones in the same cycle. There is nothing wrong with that.

Hopefully with me commenting it will bump your thread and someone else will know something that can help you finalize you plan. I wish I knew more.


#13

I appreciate you taking the time to respond again.

I thought about the difficulty of having two orals, especially reading that Anadrol is much harsher than several other oral compounds. At first I thought to put the the break in between ending drol and starting tbol. Then I thought that perhaps it’s simply too much for the liver and posted the other potential cycle where I swapped the tbol for either NPP or EQ.

Basically I want something that will give me some serious strength and some mass. I realize as a wet gainer I won’t keep a lot of the mass from the Anadrol kick start but if I follow it up with a solid combo of test and another compound that can facilitate lesser, but solid gains I might be able to keep some of the strength and size after shedding the water?


#14

Anadrol is weird. When you look at the chemistry of it you would expect lean, dry gains. But no, it causes massive water retention, high bp, and insane strength gains. It doesn’t work the way it should on paper. As a guy who gets migraines a few times a month (odd side effect of my TRT) I have to say that any compound that has such a high rate of headaches as a side effect is immediately on my shit list.

I still think you would have great results from a Test/NPP run. If you want to kickstart it then you can use some dbol to get things going. The only problem with that is the fact that you’d be using three aromatizing drugs at one time. So that may make dialing in your AI a little tougher. Maybe something like this could work:

Weeks 1-12 Test E 500mgs
Weeks 1-6 Dbol 20-40mgs
Weeks 1-12 NPP 300mgs

I put the dbol dose on the lower end because back in ye olden days guys saw great gains from taking 10mgs twice a day. I don’t know if you necessarily need to go right to a higher dose from day one. I’m taking 20mgs/d at the moment and I have zero side effects and have gotten a little stronger in just the last week.


#15

I currently run .25mg of adex twice per week (taken when I pin) when I run T and I haven’t had any estrogenic sides nor experienced a dip below healthy estradiol levels.

Obviously you can only make a guess, but how do you think I would alter my AI running those three? Also, NPP at 150mg split twice a week with my T or 100mg three times a week due to shorter ester?


#16

The AI is tricky because both it and the test/npp/dbol have nonlinear effects on e2. If .25mgs twice a week works now then perhaps .5mgs twice a week will be perfect for this cycle. Or you could need double that. It really is hard to say. But since you already know how you react to anastrozole and what a healthy level of e2 feels like, you should be able to dial it in pretty well.

As far as how often you need NPP I’m inclined to say twice a week, which is not with the conventional wisdom. My reason is this: NPP hits peak blood plasma levels around the 84 hour mark (ballparking here). This is from an actual scientific study and not broscience. The level of nandrolone in blood plasma spikes as soon as injection, but it does not stop rising until that 3.5 day mark. At that point it falls off, but not nearly as quickly as you would think. The science tells me that you can pin twice a week and get stable levels. If you want to go three times a week it won’t hurt (except for the extra pin of course), but it does not seem to be necessary.


#17

Awesome. Your advice has been appreciated.

Edit: … my source doesn’t have caber or any anti prolactin. Damn. Kinda throws a wrench in my planning for a moment. I’ll figure something out.


#18

Honestly…I don’t think it’s strictly necessary to use caber. Not everyone gets prolactin issues with nandrolone. For those that do then having a dopamine agonist on hand is an absolute must. But it seems that guys who run a DHT derivative like Proviron don’t get any of the nandrolone-related erection issues. But your body will be different than mine and the next guy, so only do what you’re comfortable doing.