First Muslim Migrants

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Like some on this board the Mufti clearly struggles with history.

Did he actually imply that Aussie aborigines were originally Muslim? That is what I inferred when he said Muslims were in Australia before the Europeans.[/quote]

Actually what he is referring to is the little known trade between aborigines and native fishermen from the Dutch East Indies. Because a handful of Indonesian fishermen who were Muslims traded with some aborigines and set foot on Australian soil before British settlement all of Australia is now Muslim land. You know how these things work.

EDIT: None of the native fisherman from the Dutch East Indies settled here. Also, the Dutch had landed in Australia at the beginning of the 17th century, 170 years before the British.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Like some on this board the Mufti clearly struggles with history.

Did he actually imply that Aussie aborigines were originally Muslim? That is what I inferred when he said Muslims were in Australia before the Europeans.[/quote]

Actually what he is referring to is the little known trade between aborigines and native fishermen from the Dutch East Indies. Because a handful of Indonesian fishermen who were Muslims traded with some aborigines and set foot on Australian soil before British settlement all of Australia is now Muslim land. You know how these things work.

EDIT: None of the native fisherman from the Dutch East Indies settled here. Also, the Dutch had landed in Australia at the beginning of the 17th century, 170 years before the British.[/quote]

I knew the Dutch had preceded the British. I had suspected something along the lines of what you mention above.

In fact FWIW, right now I’m finishing a biography of James Cook. The author mentions Cook’s ambition to explore the South Pacific was often fueled by his desire to exceed what Abel Tasman, the Dutchman, had accomplished.

Cook, nor any prior or subsequent explorers, certainly found no Muslim communities in Australia.[/quote]

Good stuff. I’m currently reading David McCullough’s biography of John Adams.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:
Dude, go read the Qur’an, then come back and tell me that guys are muslims. Just because they do stuff in the name of Islam doesn’t make them muslim. They are misguided and being manipulated by this Mufti Douche guy. He also isn’t a muslim.
[/quote]
Oh, I’ve seen plenty from the Koran that could be used to justify treating non-Muslims this badly. But I’m willing to admit that things can be interpreted in lots of ways…

[quote]Marzouk wrote:
this Mufti Douche guy. He also isn’t a muslim.
[/quote]
See, this is what just makes no sense logically. If he’s not a “real” Muslim, why do so many Muslims follow him? How did he get (and how does he hold onto) such a high position while making statements like those, if not with the agreement of “the people?”

And just FYI, a year or so ago there was an Aussie Muslim on here DEFENDING this “Mufti Douche guy,” as you call him, telling us all that he was a “misunderstood” but “great” man.

This discussion reminds me of another Muslim who used to post here who said that the Ayatollah Khomeni also “wasn’t a Muslim.” And yet he was the spiritual leader of an “Islamic Republic?” Sorry, but that shit is just too hard to swallow.

YOU may not think these guys are “real” Muslims, but plenty of Muslims clearly do.[/quote]

I agree with you on your points, but fwiw im not muslim btw.

[quote]Chushin wrote:[quote]Marzouk wrote:
Dude, go read the Qur’an, then come back and tell me that guys are muslims. Just because they do stuff in the name of Islam doesn’t make them muslim. They are misguided and being manipulated by this Mufti Douche guy. He also isn’t a muslim.[/quote]

Oh, I’ve seen plenty from the Koran that could be used to justify treating non-Muslims this badly. But I’m willing to admit that things can be interpreted in lots of ways… [/quote]

There’s also plenty in the bible and the torah that can be used to justify treating non-believers badly… That said, I’m not sure how many religious leaders endorse that kind of interpretation like this grand mufti.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
And just FYI, a year or so ago there was an Aussie Muslim on here DEFENDING this “Mufti Douche guy,” as you call him, telling us all that he was a “misunderstood” but “great” man.

This discussion reminds me of another Muslim who used to post here who said that the Ayatollah Khomeni also “wasn’t a Muslim.” And yet he was the spiritual leader of an “Islamic Republic?” Sorry, but that shit is just too hard to swallow. [/quote]

I’m curious about what the alternate understanding of this guy is… Lots of his statements seem to be clear…

Also, close friend of mine who is a muslim and born in Iran, has told me several times that he despises the Ayatollah and that he should study up about what it means to be muslim. Seems like many dislike him and agree that he isn’t a “real” muslim but he is still in power. I would like to know what other muslims in Australia think of the grand mufti, perhaps there is a similarity.

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

Also, close friend of mine who is a muslim and born in Iran, has told me several times that he despises the Ayatollah and that he should study up about what it means to be muslim.
[/quote]

He’s right about the despising the Ayatollah bit. We(my family) have friends who fled the Iranian revolution.

Although the Grand Mufti still holds his title and still preaches at Lakemba mosque, he is no longer head of the ‘Australian Federation of Islamic Councils’. He became too much of an embarrassment for the Muslim community to continue to keep him in that position. He does however still enjoy the support of the Muslim community for the most part as is evidenced by the continued attendance of his sermons.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

There’s also plenty in the bible…that can be used to justify treating non-believers badly…

[/quote]

False.
[/quote]

But there seems to be an Israeli bigwig who likens Israels to the Amakelites.

And you know what happened to them, right?

So, not only can it be done, it is done.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

There’s also plenty in the bible…that can be used to justify treating non-believers badly…

[/quote]

False.
[/quote]

But there seems to be an Israeli bigwig who likens Israels to the Amakelites.

And you know what happened to them, right?

So, not only can it be done, it is done. [/quote]

an Israeli bigwig?

Judging from what you wrote, he sounds a tad suicidal.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

There’s also plenty in the bible…that can be used to justify treating non-believers badly…

[/quote]

False.
[/quote]

But there seems to be an Israeli bigwig who likens Israels to the Amakelites.

And you know what happened to them, right?

So, not only can it be done, it is done. [/quote]

an Israeli bigwig?

Judging from what you wrote, he sounds a tad suicidal.

[/quote]

Either a general or a politician.

Dont know and cant be expected to dig it up at the moment.

I think he was going for the “lets smite them all angle”.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

There’s also plenty in the bible…that can be used to justify treating non-believers badly…

[/quote]

False.
[/quote]

I don’t really want to have this discussion especially in a thread it is very indirectly related to… but it’s true.

Quick search (since I don’t have them memorized) turned up these… among MANY others.

From the new testament.

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. -Revelation, 9/4

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:7)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:9)

And a couple, from the old testament.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (Psalm 14:1)

Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. (Psalm 50:22)

I said COULD be used to justify treating non believers badly. I don’t believe they are used in that way (maybe westboro uses them that way… but they’re crazy) I just said COULD.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:
I said COULD be used to justify treating non believers badly. I don’t believe they are used in that way (maybe westboro uses them that way… but they’re crazy) I just said COULD. [/quote]

NONE of what you wrote “COULD be used to justify treating non believers badly.”

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.[/quote]

You were going to dismiss my argument no matter what. But the bible is open to interpretation and you seem to be denying that all together.

But there’s no point in continuing this. We will continue to disagree. Nice while it lasted I suppose.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Kebvin wrote:
I said COULD be used to justify treating non believers badly. I don’t believe they are used in that way (maybe westboro uses them that way… but they’re crazy) I just said COULD. [/quote]

NONE of what you wrote “COULD be used to justify treating non believers badly.”

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.[/quote]

You were going to dismiss my argument no matter what. But the bible is open to interpretation and you seem to be denying that all together.

But there’s no point in continuing this. We will continue to disagree. Nice while it lasted I suppose.[/quote]

I’m dismissing your argument because you don’t have one. You sent up a bottle rocket thinking it was a Titan V.

The Bible IS open to interpretation on some things but not on the issue you brought up. You simply do NOT know what you’re talking about; you’re the 140 lbs newb on the bodybuilding forum telling folks how you added slabs of muscle mass doing tricep kickbacks.

Leave now - you never should’ve showed up here.[/quote]

Harsh.