T Nation

First Labs Since Starting TRT

Hey all,
Coming up on my 9th injection of 110mg week test enthanate, injection on Friday. And 1200iu a week of hcg split into 3 400iu injections, Sun, Wed, Fri. Doc wanted my bloodwork 72hrs after last injection. So Monday morning.

Since starting I’ve noticed a uptick in my overall mood and memory. I’ve leaned out, and gained muscle. However, my libido and erections are still relatively non existent. And my old gyno has flared up a bit. I’ve also been more emotional.

Doc only wants to test total testosterone, estradiol, vitamin d, and the usual blood markers, wbc, RBC, hemoglobin, etc.

Lifelabs:
Total Test came back at 60.5 (8.4-28.8 nmol/L)
Estradiol 279 (<162 pmol/L)
Vit D 136 (75-250 nmol/L)

I’m thinking of dropping the HCG. I want kids, but don’t have anything lined up so maybe I’ll go on it when I have a girl ready.

Is my high estradiol the reason for my lack of libido and boners?
Is the hcg causing it?
I wonder why I’m reading double the top of the range even though I’m following the injection and dosage schedule that he gives to most clients?

Doc is Dr. Komer in Burlington, Ontario, Canada. I’m gonna call the office tomorrow for some guidance as well.

Thanks.

Libido & dick stuff takes a while my man. Any little change can effect it. I personally would drop the HCG until you’re ready for kids and focus on getting your TRT right since HCG can complicate things and lead some to not getting everything they could from TRT. Libido for me takes about 4 or so months to get consistent so relax and don’t fret over it. It will come. Your levels will come down some when you drop the HCG. Your body needs time to get used to a protocol and during that time you may not feel amazing. It takes 2-3 months to acclimate.

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Your Total T levels are too high, your body can send hormones down other pathways. Your estrogen (76 pg/mL) isn’t really that high considering your Total T is 60.5 nmol/L (1729 ng/dL).

I’d say if he’s getting gyno, then his estrogen is too high no matter what his testosterone level is. We always like to say here, “Don’t worry about the numbers so much as how you are feeling”, and I agree with that. But then we turn around and ignore the negative physical effects of elevated e2. Gyno is serious. And as far as lack of libido and boners, yes there are many variables, but elevated e2 is one of them…at least for me. I get problems if my e2 gets too far into the 30’s. no matter how high my total and free T are. But everyone is different. But gyno cannot be ignored.

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If only gyno was a direct result of estrogen then I’d agree with you.

What do you mean by that? Do you think his gyno is a concern or not, and is it a result of elevated e2 or not?

First off, you don’t measure labs 72 hours after injection when you’re doing weekly shots. It just isn’t done. You measure the day of your injection prior to injection.

He’s definitly hyper sensitive to testosterone as just a touch drives his levels way up, just like one of my good friends.

If he doesn’t need to be fertile NOW drop the HCG (this will also lower his serum levels).

We have NO idea where his free T is because his inexperienced doc didn’t measure the most important blood test of them all.

Also, split weekly dose into 2 and inject twice a week.

Take labs in 8 weeks and assess how you’re feeling.

Doing all this should ease up on the gyno by keeping levels more stable. It has nothing to do with estrogen.

Nothing.

Some docs like don’t want to see the trough, they want a midpoint. But at 72 hours he’d still be close to 80 of peak, so it doesn’t make sense either way. Weird. Get a new doc.

dbossa, I don’t know how you can say gyno has nothing to do with e2.

Because it doesn’t.

How many videos of doctors that I’ve interviewed that say E2 is a non concern do I need to send you?

Gyno is caused by a number of things. I’ve discussed them at length.

So of those number of things, e2 isn’t one of them?

Depends on how you look at it. High E2 with low T? Sure? It’s not the high E2 causing it. It’s the low T.

So… No.

Give exogenous estradiol in high doses? Yes.

But Danny, in this case, the mans t is 1700. Can we not say e is a concern that he’s getting gyno? Remember, it’s not just about numbers it’s about feel. Here we have a clinical symptom. Your thoughts?

High androgens, high IGF-1, too high androgens throwing off the ratio to what his body will tolerate, high fluctuations, and on and on and on.

E2 in the presence of high testosterone becomes a non issue. E2 in the presence of low testosterone can cause an issue… This is what @systemlord insists on calling ‘estrogen dominance’ when it should be called an ‘androgen deficiency’. Why? Bring up the levels of androgens and the symtoms disappear. Not to mention, when doing so, aromatase will cause E2 to go higher than it was before. I don’t know a more logical explanation than this one. If E2 causes gyno, all the guys in my FB group would have breasts which is not the case. Even with myself, super sensitive to gyno, the more T I take the more it shrinks.

The other thing you guys sometimes don’t realize is that even though E2 follows T, at one point E2 WILL level off. It doesn’t just keep rising.

You’re also forgetting that it is a paracrine hormone. The majority of it is in the tissue. Serum levels are only a tiny bit of what is actually there. The whole serum measurement level of estradiol is absolute nonsense. It’s like having a bucket of water with a leak, and you’re measuring the leak to determine how much water is in the bucket. This is pointless.

If you are gyno prone you’ll discover the things that set it off. You’ll find a protocol administration and frequency that works for you. You’ll find a dose that works for you. You may find if you go TOO high it triggers it but this is your body’s way of saying it might be too much for you. Even if it IS triggered, oftentimes it will go away on its own.

There is so much I can teach you guys on this subject. Watch the video I just did with Brad Garner. Mark Gordon never touches E2. None of them do. Eric Serrano told me most of the bodybuilders he knows are getting of their AIs.

I can dump evidence on you all day as well as logical arguments. Wish you could open your minds a bit. I have some of the best in world confirming this and you still want to argue lol

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For hcg is there a time limit from being on trt that this wont work, or possiblylength of time that will diminish your chances for HCG to help bring fertility back to normal?

Not really. I’ve know guys on TRT for over a decade that hopped on HCG to be fertile and they were fine. Others who abused testosterone like you would believe for years, never took HCG, and they had kids. I mean, if you were shut down for 30 years and tried it, who knows. So far, nobody has reported to me that they were unable to get the job done using HCG or HMG.

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Tamoxifen is the first line of defence to combat gyno and it just so happens Tamoxifen blocks estrogen at the breast receptors, so if anyone is going to say estrogen isn’t responsible for gyno, a flogging is in order, lol.

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That’s a very mice write up DB. Much better than “estrogen has nothing to do with gyno”.

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It doesn’t just block estrogen at the receptor. It blocks ANY activity at the receptor of any kind because it binds to it.

No flogging required.

@incline315
I do daily shots. My total T is 2000 and my E2 is 80 at all times. I’ve had gyno issues before TRT. Have not had issues with gyno on TRT. If gyno is a problem and you’re worried about estrogen then have Tamoxifen on hand but high levels themselves don’t mean gyno even in people that are prone to it.

You’ve had no gyno this time around? I thought you had it in the past. If so what caused it? I wouldn’t expect gyno with a ratio of 2000:80 (25:1).