T Nation

First H-Drol Cycle

About to start my very first cycle. Five weeks of H-drol. I’m 37yo 5’9" 167lb and approx 10% BF. Been lifting over 15 years. Primary goal is cut/recomp with as much bulking as I can get out of it. Planning on eating about 500cal over maintenance and doing lots of cardio.

My number one concern in PCT is gyno prevention! I don’t care about any other temporary sides like libido loss, lethargy, etc.

This is my plan:

Weeks 1-5 H-drol 50/50/75/75/75 - split 2 doses/day
Weeks 1-9 AI’s Life Support (pill form of Cycle Support) - 4 caps ED 2 doses/day

PCT
Weeks ??-9 Lean Xtreme - When to start and how much to use?
Weeks 6-9 Creatine
Weeks 6-9 Diesel Test Hardcore - 3 caps ED
Weeks 6-9 Post Cycle Support - 4 caps ED 2 doses/day
Weeks 6-10 6-oxo 300/300/300/200/100

IF SERM IS NEEDED:
Weeks 6-9 Torem 120x3, 90x4 /60/60/30
Weeks 8-12 6-oxo 300/300/300/200/100

QUESTIONS:
Does this look solid all-around plan? Are the dosages & schedule OK?

When should I start cortisol control (LX)? I’ve heard week 1, 2, 3. Can you answer with a brief explanation so I can try to make sense of this?

For gyno prevention would I be better off just going with Torem and skipping the AI (6-oxo)?

TIA!

drop the 6-ox

Use an SERM for PCT

Dont pyramid up the dose of hdrol, run 75 or 100 the whole time, and run it for 6 weeks.

It takes a little longer to kick than many.

You mean cortisol, not cortisone btw.

Dont bother with cortisol, its too expensive to worry about when you’re just doing a prohormone.

If your worried throw 800-1000IU of vitamin E in your PCT. It will reduce cortisol issues.

If your worried about gyno you want an SERM and you want to not use the 6-oxo because its pretty much crap.

Hdrol isn’t going to be a big bulker by any means, but if you really focus hard on taking in those extra calories you should achieve some lean gains. I certainly wouldn’t be stressing about the recomp aspects of the cycle given your stats. Eat, lift and let things work themselves out.

Generally with AAS cort control isn’t an issue until PCT. If anything, cort levels can be lowered excessively on some cycles… Truthfully, most of us here probably don’t worry about it nearly as much as the prohormone / designer steroid crowd does. Anyway, I don’t see the point in starting it before week 7, maybe week 6 if you’re in a rush… when your cort levels start to climb post-cycle.

Not a fan of 6oxo, but to your credit you start it several weeks into PCT and taper it down nicely. While I wouldn’t bother with it, yours is probably the best approach if one was to use it.

Hdrol is quite mild but I’d still do a torem PCT. Not only does it help with gyno prevention, but also with HPTA recovery. No point in losing gains because your natural test levels aren’t coming back properly.

I liked hdrol a lot and out of all the ph’s it is the only one I would strongly recommend. Maybe not full suppression, but def partial at least IME.

Out of all the CEL products this one was probably the lamest duck on me personally. Didn’t like it. Didn’t get anything from it. It merely wasted my nolva. I second the advice regarding using a SERM for your PCT.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
drop the 6-ox

Use an SERM for PCT

Dont pyramid up the dose of hdrol, run 75 or 100 the whole time, and run it for 6 weeks.

It takes a little longer to kick than many.

You mean cortisol, not cortisone btw.

Dont bother with cortisol, its too expensive to worry about when you’re just doing a prohormone.

If your worried throw 800-1000IU of vitamin E in your PCT. It will reduce cortisol issues.

If your worried about gyno you want an SERM and you want to not use the 6-oxo because its pretty much crap.[/quote]

LOL, yeah I meant cortisol of course.

You recommend dropping 6-oxo, so what would you use as an AI with hdrol and Torem? I was going to use Formex but it’s rather untested since it’s so new. Open to suggestions here.

Does my Torem dosing look good?

Should DTH be taken all at once or split into 2-3 doses?

Thanks guys.

[quote]LAGear wrote:
Westclock wrote:
drop the 6-ox

Use an SERM for PCT

Dont pyramid up the dose of hdrol, run 75 or 100 the whole time, and run it for 6 weeks.

It takes a little longer to kick than many.

You mean cortisol, not cortisone btw.

Dont bother with cortisol, its too expensive to worry about when you’re just doing a prohormone.

If your worried throw 800-1000IU of vitamin E in your PCT. It will reduce cortisol issues.

If your worried about gyno you want an SERM and you want to not use the 6-oxo because its pretty much crap.
LOL, yeah I meant cortisol of course.

You recommend dropping 6-oxo, so what would you use as an AI with hdrol and Torem? I was going to use Formex but it’s rather untested since it’s so new. Open to suggestions here.

Does my Torem dosing look good?

Should DTH be taken all at once or split into 2-3 doses?

Thanks guys.[/quote]

Test booster is probably more effective if split up, agian it doesnt really do much, so use as you like.

You dont need an AI with hdrol as it doesnt aromatize. If your using an SERM for a PCT you good. Its game, set, match.

Formex is still up in the air, it seems interesting, but more research is needed, and besides adex, letro, etc, time tested and proven AI’s are easily available and for the most part cheaper.

[quote]LAGear wrote:
Westclock wrote:
drop the 6-ox

Use an SERM for PCT

Dont pyramid up the dose of hdrol, run 75 or 100 the whole time, and run it for 6 weeks.

It takes a little longer to kick than many.

You mean cortisol, not cortisone btw.

Dont bother with cortisol, its too expensive to worry about when you’re just doing a prohormone.

If your worried throw 800-1000IU of vitamin E in your PCT. It will reduce cortisol issues.

If your worried about gyno you want an SERM and you want to not use the 6-oxo because its pretty much crap.

LOL, yeah I meant cortisol of course.

You recommend dropping 6-oxo, so what would you use as an AI with hdrol and Torem? I was going to use Formex but it’s rather untested since it’s so new. Open to suggestions here.

Does my Torem dosing look good?

Should DTH be taken all at once or split into 2-3 doses?

Thanks guys.[/quote]

Hdrol doesn’t aromatize… thanks to that lil’ ol’ chlorine atom at C-4, so there’s no need for an AI.

Supp makers want people to use these various commercial AIs for PCT instead of SERMS because its big business. Whether its PA at Ergo or Eric at Primordial, they all want a chunk of the research chem business, so sometimes the science isn’t presented very well.

You should come through PCT just fine on torem. If you’re really worried about a rebound effect, your best bet would be to run torem a little longer (though that usually means a 2nd bottle).

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Out of all the CEL products this one was probably the lamest duck on me personally. Didn’t like it. Didn’t get anything from it. It merely wasted my nolva. I second the advice regarding using a SERM for your PCT. [/quote]

How did you run it?

[quote]benmoore wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Out of all the CEL products this one was probably the lamest duck on me personally. Didn’t like it. Didn’t get anything from it. It merely wasted my nolva. I second the advice regarding using a SERM for your PCT.

How did you run it?[/quote]

5 weeks. Initially 2 tabs then 3. 40/30/20/10 with Nolva, tribulus, 60X0 (i had some left over). On cycle it was basically Liv52. M-drol gets my vote.

So what I’m hearing is that no AI is needed at any point of PCT for h-drol.

My Torem shipped today and one bottle should cover me for: 120x3, 90x4 /60/60/30

Does that sound like a good plan for full recovery and no gyno risks? Or would you recommend dosing it differently?

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
benmoore wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Out of all the CEL products this one was probably the lamest duck on me personally. Didn’t like it. Didn’t get anything from it. It merely wasted my nolva. I second the advice regarding using a SERM for your PCT.

How did you run it?

5 weeks. Initially 2 tabs then 3. 40/30/20/10 with Nolva, tribulus, 60X0 (i had some left over). On cycle it was basically Liv52. M-drol gets my vote. [/quote]

Hdrol needs to be run at 75-100+mg/day.

You ran it at 50, which is too low even for normal lifters. And it needs to be run for almost 7 weeks, as it takes a while to kick in.

Mdrol on the other hand is effective in the 20-40mg/day range, and is effective in shorter cycles of 4 weeks.

Mdrol is a superior oral, but Hdrol is very clean, no sides, and it boosts cardio capacity.

Mdrol doesnt boost cardio.

[quote]LAGear wrote:
So what I’m hearing is that no AI is needed at any point of PCT for h-drol.

My Torem shipped today and one bottle should cover me for: 120x3, 90x4 /60/60/30

Does that sound like a good plan for full recovery and no gyno risks? Or would you recommend dosing it differently?[/quote]

That dosing sounds fine.

But realize this: when you decide to use AAS you have to accept the fact that there are risks. If that bothers you, then don’t run a cycle.

None of us want gyno either, but you have an obsession with it. Did you have a bad case of pubertal gyno? If so, that would obviously put you at an increased risk with any cycle.

As I wrote previously, you’re using the most user-friendly, commercial product available. It is mild, it doesn’t aromatize, and HPTA suppression will be quite mild. Recovery should be easy.

SERMS are the best approach for PCT but if you are determined to use an AI, fine. Generally they do cause bad lipid profiles due to the effects of depressed E, and they increase the potential for rebound gyno unless you taper off very carefully, though.

I think this one is beaten to death.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
benmoore wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Out of all the CEL products this one was probably the lamest duck on me personally. Didn’t like it. Didn’t get anything from it. It merely wasted my nolva. I second the advice regarding using a SERM for your PCT.

How did you run it?

5 weeks. Initially 2 tabs then 3. 40/30/20/10 with Nolva, tribulus, 60X0 (i had some left over). On cycle it was basically Liv52. M-drol gets my vote.

Hdrol needs to be run at 75-100+mg/day.

You ran it at 50, which is too low even for normal lifters. And it needs to be run for almost 7 weeks, as it takes a while to kick in.

Mdrol on the other hand is effective in the 20-40mg/day range, and is effective in shorter cycles of 4 weeks.

Mdrol is a superior oral, but Hdrol is very clean, no sides, and it boosts cardio capacity.

Mdrol doesnt boost cardio.[/quote]

OOPS! Ain’t going back now Westclock! lol

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:

OOPS! Ain’t going back now Westclock! lol [/quote]

lol I would never recommend that you do.

Simply stating why your results were sub par for the benefit of the other peoples out there that read and lurk.

[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
That dosing sounds fine.

But realize this: when you decide to use AAS you have to accept the fact that there are risks. If that bothers you, then don’t run a cycle.

None of us want gyno either, but you have an obsession with it. Did you have a bad case of pubertal gyno? If so, that would obviously put you at an increased risk with any cycle.

As I wrote previously, you’re using the most user-friendly, commercial product available. It is mild, it doesn’t aromatize, and HPTA suppression will be quite mild. Recovery should be easy.

SERMS are the best approach for PCT but if you are determined to use an AI, fine. Generally they do cause bad lipid profiles due to the effects of depressed E, and they increase the potential for rebound gyno unless you taper off very carefully, though.

I think this one is beaten to death.
[/quote]
Thanks.

I’ve never had gyno.

I understand that there are some risks with h-drol. But I also understand that screwing up PCT can cause gyno. I’m waaay less worried about the h-drol itself causing gyno than getting gyno because I get estrogen rebound from f’ing up my PCT.

So I’m really just trying to make sure I get PCT right so the PCT doesn’t cause gyno. It’s frustrating for a first timer because there’s no consensus for AI & SERM usage. But thanks to helpful vets like you it’s coming together. I’ve already started the cycle and have everything I need for PCT on hand. Just trying to figure out what to use when PCT starts. At this point I’m pretty sure I’m going to use the Torem and ditch the AI.

You mentioned rebound gyno from improper tapering of AIs. But isn’t there also a risk of rebound gyno from improper dosing of SERMs?

One last question. There’s a good possibility that after five weeks of h-drol I won’t have any noticeable symptoms of being shutdown. Would you still use a SERM in that case?

[quote]LAGear wrote:
(snip)
You mentioned rebound gyno from improper tapering of AIs. But isn’t there also a risk of rebound gyno from improper dosing of SERMs?

One last question. There’s a good possibility that after five weeks of h-drol I won’t have any noticeable symptoms of being shutdown. Would you still use a SERM in that case?[/quote]

After you taper off of 4 weeks of PCT after hdrol, you’ll be normalized and there really isn’t much potential there for a “rebound”. I admit that gyno prevention isn’t always an easy topic to grasp, because there are inconsistencies between theory and practice and we tend to fill in the theory to explain our observations. I’m tired so I’m carrying on. Point is, you don’t want to knock down your estrogen levels lower than necessary and have to worry about them coming back to the right level and not overshooting the mark.

Use the torem regardless of whether or not you feel shutdown. Hell, if I use a mild designer like epi or hdrol I never feel shutdown and I’m a little bit older than you. Remember, it’s a real AAS and there is a degree of suppression whether it’s obvious or not.

I’m on day 15 of my cycle and thought I’d post an update on my status.

First think I noticed was on day three when my nuts started to hurt in a blue balls kind of way. This was a bit alarming but was pretty much gone by day five. It comes back from time to time but much more mild.

I was going to keep a more detailed log but I honestly haven’t noticed anything from the cycle so I’ve had nothing to say. No changes in strength, libido, body comp, hunger, mood, aggression… So far everything is within the range of what I might expect if I wasn’t on a cycle. I’m not surprised by this because I know real gains aren’t usually seen until the third week but I was hoping to notice something other than side effects (back pump and sore nuts).

On day ten I was doing deadlifts and noticed unusual tightness in my lower back. I assume this is what people refer to as back pumps. It was annoying because I’ve been taking taurine to prevent pumps yet I still got this side effect and have no gains. However, the tightness hasn’t been back since that day which is a relief. We’ll see what happens on my next DL day.

I normally lift three days a week but bumped it up to four days a week since starting the cycle (MTThF).

Yesterday I noticed more of a pump in my arms during and after my workout. However, I started a new lifting routine yesterday which might explain the pump.

Diet has been super clean. I’ve been eating about 80gm of protein more than I usually do and about 300 calories more than I usually do but still in my maintenance range.

I’ve been doing less cardio than I’d like because of some mild knee tenderness that flares up when I run so yesterday I started using the eliptical and will do that until the knee issue clears up.

I’m officially in week three when things will allegedly start to get interesting. I’ll log more regularly if I have anything interesting to report; no update means no changes.

s[quote]LAGear wrote:
I’m on day 15 of my cycle and thought I’d post an update on my status.

First think I noticed was on day three when my nuts started to hurt in a blue balls kind of way. This was a bit alarming but was pretty much gone by day five. It comes back from time to time but much more mild.

I was going to keep a more detailed log but I honestly haven’t noticed anything from the cycle so I’ve had nothing to say. No changes in strength, libido, body comp, hunger, mood, aggression… So far everything is within the range of what I might expect if I wasn’t on a cycle. I’m not surprised by this because I know real gains aren’t usually seen until the third week but I was hoping to notice something other than side effects (back pump and sore nuts).

On day ten I was doing deadlifts and noticed unusual tightness in my lower back. I assume this is what people refer to as back pumps. It was annoying because I’ve been taking taurine to prevent pumps yet I still got this side effect and have no gains. However, the tightness hasn’t been back since that day which is a relief. We’ll see what happens on my next DL day.

I normally lift three days a week but bumped it up to four days a week since starting the cycle (MTThF).

Yesterday I noticed more of a pump in my arms during and after my workout. However, I started a new lifting routine yesterday which might explain the pump.

Diet has been super clean. I’ve been eating about 80gm of protein more than I usually do and about 300 calories more than I usually do but still in my maintenance range.

I’ve been doing less cardio than I’d like because of some mild knee tenderness that flares up when I run so yesterday I started using the eliptical and will do that until the knee issue clears up.

I’m officially in week three when things will allegedly start to get interesting. I’ll log more regularly if I have anything interesting to report; no update means no changes.
[/quote]

good luck, hopefully the back pumps dont get too bad.

and good choice going with a SERM for PCT. i just started posting here but i see tons of different boards where people are advising otc’s for Hdrol because its a “mild, beginner compound”. well ive personally seen bloodwork after a 6 week 75mg Hdrol cycle where the guys total test value was 44! seems like people here have their heads on straight.

[quote]Holden Caulfield wrote:
good luck, hopefully the back pumps dont get too bad.

and good choice going with a SERM for PCT. i just started posting here but i see tons of different boards where people are advising otc’s for Hdrol because its a “mild, beginner compound”. well ive personally seen bloodwork after a 6 week 75mg Hdrol cycle where the guys total test value was 44! seems like people here have their heads on straight.[/quote]

Yeah, there are other sites with a definite OTC bias which I attribute in large part to the plethora of supplement company reps. It’s almost impossible to have a discussion without a rep jumping in with a plug of some sort.

I’ve seen reps tell people that their PCT (using the rep’s product) was fine even though it was inadequate.

About the guy with the 44 T score, did he feel like he was shutdown or was the low test a complete surprise to him?