T Nation

First Cycle: Winstrol and Anavar

I was planning on taking my 1st winstrol cycle and run Anavar. Please look at my stack and let me know if i need to change anything. Running the cycle for 5 weeks should I run PCT for 2 or 3 weeks?
Winstrol

Is this a 5 week winny and anavar only cycle?

You really took the time to make a spreadsheet to Troll lol A for effort

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Nah bro I’m for real. Not trying to run test prop and all that right now.

My… Lipids… took a nosedive reading this

It can be done, sure, but why? Are you planning to step on stage or do a photoshoot?

Doing both in june

tenor%20(15)

Then why not run something like this just before the contest and photoshoot? Is the photoshoot paid or for vanity

The photoshoot is paid. I was debating between this or clen. Would I even need to run pct for this stack? With clen I know I don’t have to worry about pct.

Unless your gonna run a test base with orals I would highly suggest staying away.

Clen would be a much better option for trimming down without the headache of all the negatives of running an oral without test and yes you would need to pct from a oral only cycle

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For the 100th time this month. YOU CANNOT RUN AN ORAL CYCLE WITHOUT ADDING EXOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE! You will crash your natural production, lose whatever little gains your cycle added and potentially fuck yourself up.

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I don’t want to start an argument, however I’ve seen this theory repeated on various bodybuilding forms (and in bodybuilding circles) time and time again that one cannot run orals and/or that testosterone is vital to use as a base on cycle. I don’t believe this to be true in the slightest, if a compound has adequate androgenicity, anabolic strength, neuro effects etc I see no reason why it can’t be run solo.

Take d-bol for instance, positive impact on dopamine (maintains sense of wellbeing) unsure of effects on other neurotransmitters such as serotonin due to lack of literature (actually I’m basing my hypothesis of it’s effect on dopamine via anecdotal reports of the compound on subjective sense of wellbeing, libido etc). Tis androgenic, esp it’s 5a reduced metabolite M-1-T, anabolic, aromatises readily (given it’s androgenic properties + estrogenic nature would maintain bone density). Given the characteristics of this particular drug I see no reason as to why it couldn’t be run solo.

When one ceases to use testosterone, their natural production crashes anyway, anabolic steroids (besides testosterone) are simply synthetic derivatives of testosterone, while some drugs aren’t suitable for solo use (idk, think… primobolan), some I think totally are. Methyltestosteorne and fluoxymesterone have been used as hormone replacement therapy for many years, only recently phased out due to hepatotoxicity (not lack of efficiency).

PCT properly and there’s no reason why you can’t keep gains from orals (however glycogen, water and sodium retention wear off rapidly). Only issue is that orals tend to be much harsher on the lipid profile, liver, kidneys and body in general (blood pressure etc).

Just my theory, can @physiolojik Dr Sir Mr Sir clarify?

Finally, prior to bodybuilding competitions, competitors tend to cut test out of their stack, run like… mast + tren or something (agh… my lipids… my left ventricle). Then drop out injectable compounds for orals a week prior (maybe I’m wrong tho, this is how I’ve been told it works for competitors) to avoid injection site lumps or whatever)

All I can say is, literature (old) using dbol at relatively high doses (30-50mg/day) for various medical conditions surprisingly shows a decent safety profile when used in the short term.

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I yield to your superior intellect little brother.

All good points. Thank you

I agree with a lot of what you say @unreal24278 when it comes to the books you have me beat by miles but I think this is one of the times where I side with bro science.

Can it be done yes has it been done yes.

Is it the optimal situation I don’t believe so.

I dont think there is any benefit whatsoever to run an oral only cycle and not atleast add in a trt dose of prop if your worried about water.

Sure if your about to step on stage for mr. O in sure they have a certain protocol but for the other 99.99% of us I think the minimum of trt dose should be used

Especially for someone like this whose only reason for not using it is laziness or “not ready to pin” if that’s the case stay away from gear

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Dbol is known for having good synergistic effects with other compounds. A 1+1=3 type situation. So Dbol could maybe be used in a HRT protocol, but for performance enhancement, I would think adding some prop would really help.

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If you are scared to inject test don’t run winny and var. Just run SARMS.
lgd and rad for getting bigger or just solo rad at high dose if you are trying to get more lean mass. I’m no expert but winny and var without test is silly.

Extremely well said! There’s a good reason to understand how your body responds to TRT levels of testosterone before engaging in even “physiologic” (as opposed to supra-physiologic") dosages of synthetic androgens like oxandrolone or nandrolone. You need to collect a baseline methodically. Some guys Hct will jump to 55 on 150-200 mg week of testosterone (steady-state) and others won’t. Start with the basics first. Hence, guys who’ve stabilized on TRT are in a unique and preferred position to understand and learn/experiment with other compounds (for example, nandrolone/oxandrolone for wasting, anabolic recovery) while also having a safety net so to speak (i.e., no concern with downregulating HPTA since you’ve got the exogenous test backing you up and your shutdown already). Lots more that could be discussed on your individual objective function vs long and short term consequences. That’s the difference between hypothetical theory and everyday practice and your individual health is where the rubber meets the road.

I really appreciate all the vets on here trying to keep people from making bad decisions…
@zeek1414, @studhammer, @iron_yuppie and many more.

And I mention oxandrolone and nandrolone here on purpose. If you haven’t done your homework to be able to converse with your doctor(s) about the successful utilization of these compounds for your individual plan, then there’s probably a good chance your not prepared for the consequences from their use or your AAS use. It’s a good idea to avoid making bad decisions with potentially long lasting consequences before your pre-frontal cortex is developed. That seems to be a theme on here.

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As to prefrontal cortex development and potentially adverse changes in brain chemistry, while anabolic steroids can (probably) have a profound negative impact on the developing brains of young people (prolonged imbalance of various neurotransmitters, potentially neurotoxic stimuli) it has been demonstrated that structural differences in brain chemistry do exist in individuals who abuse anabolic steroids (even at low doses supposedly), while these studies have massive limitations in themselves, it does hint at a potentially neurotoxic and brain altering property of anabolic steroids that appears to occur (independently) of age.

I’m not condoning or defending young people abusing anabolic steroids, as similarly to recreational drug use, it’s a bad idea (the same can be said for adults, but moreso for those under 25 for alcohol/various intoxicants and under 18-21 for marijuana. The undeveloped brain has an increased risk of becoming dependent on the drug.

That being said impulsivity does appear to be a major issue (likely related to unfinished brain development) among teenagers. The age of 25 isn’t entirely set in stone, while I can be rather confident that my brain hasn’t finished developing, some individuals brain development will be complete before the golden age of 25, it’s individual at what rate someone develops neurologically, just like how physical development isn’t linear in regard to age of pubertal completion.

Then there’s this, these compounds aren’t “good” or “healthy” for you in any sense provided you are free of legitimate medical ailments requiring these medications. In Aus, neither of the meds are on the market either, a healthy (yet unfortunate enough to require trt) guy in his 20s will have a tough time acquiring a script for oxandrolone from a run of the mill doctor. Only the most progressive will prescribe these things.

I’ll tell you what I’ve noticed (a young guy on TRT and who has used anabolics at low doses before). Prior to TRT I was less impulsive, however I was far less confident, far more anxious about everything. On TRT (and cycling) my anxiety reduced, my self confidence increased somewhat, I feel great. I do wonder however whether my increase in impulsivity is due to adverse effects on my brain being pharmacologically induced, doubt it though, I was much more impulsive than I am now prior to acquiring hypogonadism at ages 12-13-14.

Precisely, these compounds (in US, thanks for clarification in AUS) help to support a self-consistent framework that acts as a filter to reinforce risk/reward and why an individual would be using AAS. I like your comments on the interaction of brain and AAS, I was just explicitly mentioning brain maturation before considering these compounds but the interaction of these drugs on brain development also another important consideration reinforcing caution. Thanks for mentioning.

What’s interesting however, is despite the structural differences observed in brain structure (specifically right amygdala being most significant), no differences could be found in behavior, depressive scores etc.

However if anabolic steroids are significantly neurotoxic, could they facilitate the progression of neurodegenerative diseases (involving the brain) such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s etc? We don’t know, it does appear that high concentrations of trenbolone rapidly accelerates neurodegeneration in animal.models and that other AAS when exposed DIRECTLY to hippocampal cells at ridiculous micromolar concentrations rather quickly demonstrate significant neurotoxicity.