T Nation

First Cycle, Training in Thailand


This will be my first ever cycle. Even though I've always been somewhat educated on the subject, I've never used because of frequent drug testing and solid gains without it.
Now I know I need to use some to take everything to a new level, body doesn't respond as good to training as it has before.
I'm thinking of doing a 8-week cycle this fall.

Either with:

Anavar 40mg
Oral-Turinabol 40-50mg

or I'm thinking of switching the OT for an injectable steroid, because the main goal for this cycle is strength gain with a short tracking time (since I compete and get tested in-season).
A guy I know suggested Test Suspension or Test Prop, but I dunno if I wanna keep injecting myself day in and day out, since I'm gonna be administering the stuff mainly myself.
I also thought of Winstrol, but I don't wanna risk joint damage since I'll be doing some very hard training that'll potentially fuck up my joints if I do it while on the stuff.

Any suggestions, guys? What do you think?

I'm gonna be doing this in Thailand, so I also have to know if the stuff I need is available there.


Stats such as weight, age, training age? I would highly reccomend injectable over oral cycle...esp. for first cycle. Bottom line, it's much more feasible to sustain gains made with injectables as opposed to orals. If you're not willing to inject yourself every day then you have to ask yourself how much you want the boost AAS can give you. Not trying to be a douchebag, but IMO you either are willng to do what it it takes to complete a cycle of AAS or you're not.

I'm sure some of the vets will chime in with some good cycles, but I would definitely look at Test as the base. How long do you have before you're tested again? That's going to determine alot of what you can take and for how long.


Weight: 200lbs
Age: 22
Been competing in sports since I was a child, on and off weight training for 6-7 years and competitive weightlifting for 2 years +

The reason why I'm hesitant on injecting every day is because I do not have anyone but myself to administer them, and therefore I have limited injection site possibilites (probably gonna have to mainly do it on my vastus lateralis) and therefore I could build up lots of scar tissue and/or get complications in the form of abcess. I've heard some stories regarding that, but it may be that those who got them didn't take the necessary precautions.

But if injectables are the sure way to go, I'll definitely do it.
I just hear and read so many bad things about Test Prop and Susp post-cycle, and I don't know what else besides Wintrol I can take that doesn't have a tracking time of less than 4-5 weeks.


Shit, now I remember reading that they are able to test for Winstrol even 5 months after use.
If that's true, I guess that's out of the question.


Get yourself some 29" slin pins (diabetics use these) which will significantly reduce scar tissue/bruising. Therefore you can pin the vastus lateralis every day if you please (I find it the easiest site to pin).

Masteron proponiate and test proponiate would be what I would be seeking out in your situation.

I get no problems from winstrol joint-wise or anything-wise tbh but I understand your lack of desire to risk it.

Not sure on clearance times for trenbolone acetate or dianabol exactly but if they are within allowable time then a test prop, tren ace and dbol cycle will make you unbelievably strong (and hyuuuge). Test P and Tren A will fit into the 29" slin pin so only one pin daily.

If this is of interest to you I suggest you have a look at the test taper sticky which has a few pages of vets talking about how exactly to administer via this method.


The detection time for Tren Ace is a whopping 5 months (Tren Hex is though at around 4 weeks).
Dianabol has been often faked in Thailand, I heard a story by Paul Borresen that there were these Thai D-bol pills that contained 5mg of Clenbuterol in which 9 people died and he himself went to the hospital after taking them.
I don't think I want to take that chance, hehe.

Injecting with slin pins, eh? Won't that just take forever?
I could see Test Suspension being injected with those since it's water-based, but for oil-based steroids you would have to sit there with the syringe in you for like forever, no?

What about stacking Test Prop with both Var and OT?
Maybe I could focus on properly injecting on my own glutes, then inject the vastus and the glute every other day interchangeably.


I've never heard any horror stories about Test Prop post cycle. The only complaint I've heard is that some UGL gear is slightly more painful when injecting. A number of memebers use slin pins while injecting ED as the amount will be small, it won't take that long and scar tissue will be less than using say a 23g needle.

I would reccomend something along the lines of:
Test Prop: 640mg Frontload? (Offhand I think that's right for 500mg/week, but run a search and you can find the frontload thread)
Test Prop:75mg/ED x 8 weeks
Adex: .25mg-.5mg EOD-ED x 8 weeks
HCG: 250ius EOD x 8 weeks

If you want to play with orals and won't use dbol then I suppose you could use Var
something along the lines of:
Anavar: 60mg/day x weeks 4-8

Nolva for PCT @ 40/40/20/20 for 4 weeks

That's a fairly simple cycle that should produce good results depending on how your diet is and should clear quickly.


For someone with no actual experience in using AAS - you seem to have a lot of opinion on what does or does not work.

Apart from the fact that every dianabol on the planet is a 'fake', the chances of you getting clen instead just because you read about it are - well small to say the least.
A vast majority of dbol comes out of that country and i happen to know that virtually every poster here will have used this drug at some point.

Injecting with slin pins obviously takes longer than ANY larger bore needle, but it is you that is limiting your options - not us.
However, the extra 'damage' (well blown out of all proportion here) caused by a 25g over a 29g is really not worth worrying about IME.

I have injected almost every 'regular' muscle group on my body - and i have only been injected by someone else less than 5 times, 4 of which were for fun not necessity.
The point is, just because it is you injecting yourself, i fail to see why you are limited to a single muscle group?

Anyway, bollocks aside - in order to be able to recommend anything you need to give more details -

How much room is there before you enter the next weight class - and do you want to do that or stay put?
How long are you in Thailand and how long do you have until the next test?
What lifts do you do (please don't just say oly)?

As a side - the easiest sites for injecting are:

Vastus Lat.
Ventro Glut.
Med. Delt

That is 10 sites.

Add in the Dorsal glute, Lat and triceps and you have 16 sites. That is a different site every day for more than 2 weeks! Yes - all are easily gotten at alone.

Not to mention that you can inject in 2 heads for each bi and tri - making the total 20 sites.


Thanks for all the help, man.

But why would I be using HCG and Adex during the whole 8 weeks? Wouldn't it be better to wait till the end of or after the cycle, and then again not do that much of it since I'm also using Nolvadex PCT?

Using HCG for too prolonged a period can fuck up the Leydig cells ability to produce testosterone.
I'm fairly sceptical about HCG, especially doing it for 8 weeks when I'm not really sure even how my body responds to additional testosterone.
Maybe my test levels won't drop that much PC, then taking lots of HCG and Nolvadex would just fuck me up, wouldn't it?

What if I do regular injections of Test Prop interchangeably on my glutes and vastus EOD,
100mg for 8 weeks (75mg every day sounds like abit much)? That way, the risk of scar tissue/abcesses is reduced since the site gets 4 days rest before it is used again.
-40-50mg Anavar ED for 8 weeks
-40mg of OT for the last 4 weeks while cutting down some on the Test Prop
-Adex for last 2 weeks .25mg EOD and then continue with it PCT along with some Tribulus maybe?

I really want the strength gains I could get from Anavar, combining it with OT would add for some more androgenic effects in that sense too.
If you really don't think I need OT, that's okay.
What do you think about my suggestion?

You also mentioned front-loading. Would that be beneficial for Test Prop? Isn't that better for steroids with heavier esters?


True, I take critique for that. I guess I'm just looking for the perfect stack, without realizing fully that there is no perfect stack. There is no safe drug, but still I want to make sure I've taken every precaution possible.

Okay, I wasn't fully aware of that. That'll make me reconsider using Dbol.

You're right, I'll research some more when it comes to site injections. Just gotta get comfortable with the thought of injecting myself I guess.

It's no problem for me going up to a higher weight class per se, since my main sport is football, not weightlifting. But I weigh around 89-90kgs now, and I need to compete at 94kgs if I want to stay in my weight class, and if I can't do that I can't compete at the nationals.
But then again, win some, lose some. Only thing I want the most is to get bigger, stronger and faster. I have lots of time to cut down to 94kgs if I would go over anyways, nationals are in March next year.

I'm gonna stay in Thailand for approximately 3 months, and I get tested once I start competing again, and I choose myself when I want to do that (however people would probably get suspicious if I come back jacked and won't start competing for a while).

I do all kinds of lifts (front/back squats, clean/snatch pulls, push presses, barbell rowing, muscle snatches, bench press, military press, good mornings etc), I do not limit myself to just the olympic lifts. Especially not when I have a strength focus phase like I will have when I'm in Thailand.
The plan is to do Smolov/Smolov Jr. for squats among other stuff.


Think you've got the detection times for tren ace and hex around the wrong way champ.

After hearing your goals more specifically I would be getting on test prop, tren ace and dbol (and hCG) as soon as I get off the dam plane.

Var is a pop-gun whereas tren is a fucking tank.

Your first cycle is your best opportunity for gains so don't fucking be a pussy like I was and use 'toy' AAS.

I've used dbol multiple times from that country without a problem. In fact those little blue hearts are the cats ass.


What's you total at the moment?
Do you have a decent strength base? i.e Snatch 130, CJ 160 ish.
And what is your goal in competition?


Prevention is better than cure.

At high doses (~1500iu) - at low and frequent doses the leydigs do not desensitize (as the stimulus is no more than naturally produced levels

If you are concerned about Test in your body - maybe you should think about not using it at all. As stated, low levels of HCG will bring your T upto the high normal range - it is akin to not being suppressed while using exogenous androgens.
Much like the first 3 weeks of a cycle actually.


You have gotten your advice - i stand by that. if you were intent on doing what you think is right, i wonder why you posted?
Was it just to show us how much you think you know?

Don't get me wrong, no-one is born with knowledge in the area (and some seem unable to learn any) but you have a stubbornness about your current information that means you are not able to learn what is ACTUALLY the case.

It's crap;

The T dose is low.
The 17AA is run for too long.
The PCT is lacking
The E2 management is poor.

Tell me - how long does a daily injection of xmg of propionate esterified drug take to build peak stable levels? And what about EOD injections?

Anyway - best of luck mate - i'm done here :slight_smile:



I hear you with the Test Prop and the Dbol, but all the profiles I've read on Test Ace says the detection time is up to 5 months, and I can't risk that.

This is taken from Steroid.com:

Trenbolone Acetate Profile
(Trenbolone Base + Acetate Ester)
Formula: C20 H24 O3
Molecular Weight: 312.4078
Molecular Weight (base): 270.3706
Molecular Weight (ester):60.0524
Formula (base): C18 H22 O2
Formula (ester): C2 H4 O2
Melting Point (base): 183-186C
Melting Point (ester):16.6C
Manufacturer: Cattle implants, British Dragon, Various
Effective Dose (Men):50-150mg ED
Effective Dose (Women): Not recommended
Active life: 2-3 days
Detection Time: 5 months <----------
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 500/500

Is there anything I can take as a substitute to Tren Ace if I do a cycle of Test Prop and Dbol?

With my strength levels I should be doing about 125, 155. I have a 210 squat and a 240 deadlift, other lifters I train with have 120S/150C&J, but I outsquat them, outpull them and outpress them.
I've had an injured knee for a fairly long time, so I haven't been able to do the Oly lifts or squat like I should.
Since I haven't prioritized technique training for the events I've got only 100/130 at the moment.
I want to be up at 130/160, and with even more added strength levels and technique training I think something close to that would be definitely possible by March next year.
My goal is to get stronger anyways, it is more important for me to have a big squat than a big snatch or C&J.
The squat is what sets the base for how much power I can run with on the football field.


X2 I was getting around to responding, but Brook pretty much covered everything. OP, there are tons of threads on here concerning cycles and the successful ones all have the shared similarity in that they utilize proper dosages of AAS, use proper ancillaries to control sides (adex and letro), and they utlize proper PCT which is generally nolva or clomid. No one is going to do 8 weeks of Test and have normal levels after the last shot. Can one recover properly without nolva? Possibly...for a first cycle even probably...but it won't be nearly as fast. There are also several threads on here from people who didn't use a PCT, didn't recover,and a year later are still feeling the effects. I think you're trying to understand, but you need to research more. You're worried about HCG and nolva, but you want to run an oral for 8 weeks? As Brook said, you have your advice and simple searches on this site will support that advice. Take it or leave it...luck.



Good to know, thanks for the info.

I'm not concerned about test in my body, I would be concerned about doing lots of anti-estrogen given that I haven't experienced how my body reacts to additonal testo yet.
But you give me good info here to rethink my original assumptions, I just don't see why you're being so arrogant about it. I'm just asking questions.
I'm not here to blow my horn, I'm here to get good info.

This is not the first time I've talked with former users, mind you. I've been told a Anavar and Turinabol-cycle would be perfect for my goals, and even though I've had counter-advice here, I haven't been told exactly WHY it wouldn't be optimal for me to do such a cycle.
I don't just accept advice just because it comes from a certain source, I need more than that.
You seem to sit on alot of knowledge on the subject, but then again, I don't know you.
That's why I'm asking questions about the advice I get, I need to do this shit right if I'm gonna do it.
No need to assume that I'm simply stubborn and want to show off stuff I know, because I can tell you that's not the case here.

See, now you're talking. Duly noted, now I know why my proposed cycle wouldn't be optimal.
So I up the T-dose, cut down on the Orals, add low doses of hCG/Adex and add to the PCT (Nolvadex?).

Thanks, I appreciate your time.


Yeah, like I said, this is my first cycle. I do not know everything, nor do I even remotely think I do. That's why I posted here, I need to know what I need to do and not do, and what I need to know more about. If I do not get reasons or explanations for the advice I get, how do I truly know how to apply them?
Sorry if it's a pain in the ass to elaborate stuff for a "newbie", it isn't personal, and it has nothing to do with me trying to show off any knowledge. I have no experience doing any sort of steroids, that's why I try to get as much info as I can from those that have.
It has simply to do with me trying to get the best that I can out of this, I think you guys can relate to that.


I understand...Brook's post illuminated some of the reasoning behind the cycle. As to the rest, I suggest reading the stickies at the top of the page. I know there are a lot of pages, but if you skim through you should get a better understanding. We're all more than willing to help, but none of us have enough time to write out every explanation to everyone that asks several times a week. Which is why we have the stickies. Anyway, read those and if you still have questions post them here.


The Tren Ace and Hexa detection times seemed mixed up to me - they ARE the same numbers all over the net, but it also looks like each site has gotten the information from the same source too..

Tren Acetate at 4-5 months and Tren Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate at 4-5 weeks suggests that is is related to the metabolism of the Acetate ester, as the only thing that differs between the two is that..

Now seeing as they don't test for the ester itself, it must be that something about the Acetate esters metabolism allows metabolites of the attached drug (in this case Trenbolone) to be detected significantly longer than the Hexahydro ester does.

Now - the question is (apart obviously from the numbers being plain wrong) is this drug specific or ester specific?
Does the ester react with Trenbolone specially, making it detectable for longer or is it that the ester has this effect on any attached steroid molecule?

I cannot find the numbers for Test A, but logic suggests that as a shorter chain than propionate, detection should be shorter too.

Bill? WHB?


Okay, after some more research, I'm gonna propose this. Tell me what you think, I'm still undecided on some stuff.

Main Cycle:
W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg ED
W 1-10 Adex .5mg ED
W ?-?? Proviron 25mg 2xED (I'm not sure when I'm gonna take this, since it has a 5-6 week detection time, I want to end it preferably before week 8)

W 4-8 Dianabol 25-30mg/day
Anavar 50-60mg/day

I'm guessing it would be best to go with D-bol here, but Anavar has good strength-increase qualities (which is the main reason for my cycle) with less side effects and shorter detection time (3 weeks as opposed to D-bol's 6 weeks)

Nolvadex 20mg 2xED PCWeek 1+2
20mg ED PCWeek 3+4

Then go home, stay away from competition and organized practises for at least 2 weeks for Proviron and D-bol to hopefully clear from the system.