T Nation

First Cycle Thoughts Test E/Dbol/Winstrol


#1

my stats: 26yrs old have used pro hormones in the past.
6'3 222.5lbs at approx 14% BF while training seriously the past 6-7 years.

My expectations: to put on some size/weight for my frame and then harden/tone up the results best I can.

Heres what my cycle looks like
Week 1-14 Test E 250mg pinned twice a week.
Week 1-4 Dbol @ 40mg-50mg ED.
figured this would also give some time off on my liver.
Week 11-14 Winstrol @ 25mg-50mg ED.
Week 1-14 Arimidex .5mg EOD/ED depending on bloat/estrogen flares.

PCT:
Weeks 16-19
Nolvadex/tamoxifen citrate 40/40/20/20
Clomid --------------------100/50/50/50

I have no access to HCG ATM but if i can get some id pin 250ui twice a week for last 8 weeks of cycle. ( am i fine without it?)

Also i will be taking a good liver support(tudca)/milk thistle
and diet will consist of 5k cals, anwhere between 400-550grams protein
carbs up to 800s and drop/cycle carbs last 4 weeks on winstrol.

the only thing i think is a problem is trying to figure out which one I want more dbol/winstrol if together would be too harsh on the insides.
Im debating on lean bulking and getting that nice hard look at the end of my cycle or just a straight cut with winstrol added in.


#2

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote:
my stats: 26yrs old have used pro hormones in the past.
6’3 222.5lbs at approx 14% BF while training seriously the past 6-7 years.

My expectations: to put on some size/weight for my frame and then harden/tone up the results best I can.

Heres what my cycle looks like
Week 1-14 Test E 250mg pinned twice a week.
Week 1-4 Dbol @ 40mg-50mg ED.
figured this would also give some time off on my liver.
Week 11-14 Winstrol @ 25mg-50mg ED.
Week 1-14 Arimidex .5mg EOD/ED depending on bloat/estrogen flares.

PCT:
Weeks 16-19
Nolvadex/tamoxifen citrate 40/40/20/20
Clomid --------------------100/50/50/50

I have no access to HCG ATM but if i can get some id pin 250ui twice a week for last 8 weeks of cycle. ( am i fine without it?)

Also i will be taking a good liver support(tudca)/milk thistle
and diet will consist of 5k cals, anwhere between 400-550grams protein
carbs up to 800s and drop/cycle carbs last 4 weeks on winstrol.

the only thing i think is a problem is trying to figure out which one I want more dbol/winstrol if together would be too harsh on the insides.
Im debating on lean bulking and getting that nice hard look at the end of my cycle or just a straight cut with winstrol added in. [/quote]

Looks good and looks like you have taken the time to read through previous posts.

I personally would just stick with the 500mg of test per week. It was my first cycle. Loved it. With a clean diet im sure you will be happy. I hate dbol, sure it gives a nice strength spike to the start of a cycle but for your goals it isnt needed, just means excess water retention. I would strongly recommend anavar if you want to try an oral. As for the winny, I just dont think you will be in good enough condition to warrant using it.

HCG, you already know the answer. If you want the best outcome from all aspects of using aas, hcg should be used on cycle. Using an enanthate ester you want to start 250iu twice per week from the seconf week into cycle, right up until last injection. Then a nice 2 week break before your pct.

PCT, looks good, I would use the chlomid at 50/50/0/0 however.

Should cycle carbs all the time, very effective way to stay leaner but energetic.

If you wanted, you could look at an 8 week cycle of test prop. Only downside is more pinning than an enanthate ester. I personally love it, especially in combo with tren ace and mast prop. Very nice hard and lean gains. Not recommended for a first cycle however.


#3

[quote]AndyJones1992 wrote:

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote:
my stats: 26yrs old have used pro hormones in the past.
6’3 222.5lbs at approx 14% BF while training seriously the past 6-7 years.

My expectations: to put on some size/weight for my frame and then harden/tone up the results best I can.

Heres what my cycle looks like
Week 1-14 Test E 250mg pinned twice a week.
Week 1-4 Dbol @ 40mg-50mg ED.
figured this would also give some time off on my liver.
Week 11-14 Winstrol @ 25mg-50mg ED.
Week 1-14 Arimidex .5mg EOD/ED depending on bloat/estrogen flares.

PCT:
Weeks 16-19
Nolvadex/tamoxifen citrate 40/40/20/20
Clomid --------------------100/50/50/50

I have no access to HCG ATM but if i can get some id pin 250ui twice a week for last 8 weeks of cycle. ( am i fine without it?)

Also i will be taking a good liver support(tudca)/milk thistle
and diet will consist of 5k cals, anwhere between 400-550grams protein
carbs up to 800s and drop/cycle carbs last 4 weeks on winstrol.

the only thing i think is a problem is trying to figure out which one I want more dbol/winstrol if together would be too harsh on the insides.
Im debating on lean bulking and getting that nice hard look at the end of my cycle or just a straight cut with winstrol added in. [/quote]

Looks good and looks like you have taken the time to read through previous posts.

I personally would just stick with the 500mg of test per week. It was my first cycle. Loved it. With a clean diet im sure you will be happy. I hate dbol, sure it gives a nice strength spike to the start of a cycle but for your goals it isnt needed, just means excess water retention. I would strongly recommend anavar if you want to try an oral. As for the winny, I just dont think you will be in good enough condition to warrant using it.

HCG, you already know the answer. If you want the best outcome from all aspects of using aas, hcg should be used on cycle. Using an enanthate ester you want to start 250iu twice per week from the seconf week into cycle, right up until last injection. Then a nice 2 week break before your pct.

PCT, looks good, I would use the chlomid at 50/50/0/0 however.

Should cycle carbs all the time, very effective way to stay leaner but energetic.

If you wanted, you could look at an 8 week cycle of test prop. Only downside is more pinning than an enanthate ester. I personally love it, especially in combo with tren ace and mast prop. Very nice hard and lean gains. Not recommended for a first cycle however.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input andy! yes i did my fair bit of research before posting anything dumb lol. In my opinion I think I could handle atleast 2 different compounds, and if dbol is mostly water which I read i was also considering a test/deca cycle

ai/pct would be same but i would add .25mg-1mg prami(frightened to death from the “deca dick”) E3d, and deca 300mg a week. test 500mg a week but i obviously dont know as much as you or some of the other vets on the forum so if you still say 500mg test is best ill probably end up going with that to be safe.

and is anavar super expensive to run at a decent dose? witch from my research id say like anywhere from 25mg-75mg ED for a starter?


#4

don’t waste ur time on anavar. it will most likely either be fake or some other cheaper steroid (like winstrol).

with that said, I wouldn’t waste time with winstrol either (really only useful for the final 8 weeks of contest prep to be combined with masteron, halotestin, and other drugs to provide you with that very crisp look (that you only get when you are very, very lean…a true 3-4% BF)

your cycle looks fine

but I would shorten it to 10 weeks, increase the dose of test… if you can run 500mg for 14 weeks, then you can run 700 for 10 weeks. i would run dbol throughout the entire cycle… test is a very solid compound (my favorite injectable), and dbol is a fantastic oral for strength and size.

don’t listen to what others say about water retention, it’s nonsense. sure, both dbol and test will make you store excess water (both subcutaneously and intramuscularly), but you definitely want that water to be there to help cushion your joints.

people complain about the gains from dbol being lost rapidly upon cessation… of course the gains will be lost quickly if you only run it for 4 weeks at 30mg/day. how much would you expect to gain from running 210mg of test/week for only 4 weeks?

this simple logic eludes them for some reason.

your liver will be fine, especially if you are using tudca. I wouldn’t waste time or money on milk thistle, as the important component (silymarin) is often of very low concentration/poor quality. Tudca is very potent for liver protection.

10 weeks of test E
12 weeks of dbol (so that you still have the ‘boost’ from dbol as the test E clears your system before pct).
adex .5mg ED

pct, as you outlined.

this may be a more aggressive course than most would recommend on this site… but these are steroids we are talking about. you would be shocked to read what many of the larger folk use (especially powerlifters).

use tudca
avoid painkillers, alcohol, Tylenol, NSAIDS, rec drugs, etc.

and keep your blood pressure under control (very, very important).


#5

^extra water doesn’t “cushion your joints.”

that myth needs to go away…


#6

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
^extra water doesn’t “cushion your joints.”

that myth needs to go away…[/quote]

I have always heard that it does… and my joints certainly feel better when I ran those types of drugs.

do you have a link or article?


#7

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
don’t waste ur time on anavar. it will most likely either be fake or some other cheaper steroid (like winstrol).

with that said, I wouldn’t waste time with winstrol either (really only useful for the final 8 weeks of contest prep to be combined with masteron, halotestin, and other drugs to provide you with that very crisp look (that you only get when you are very, very lean…a true 3-4% BF)

your cycle looks fine

but I would shorten it to 10 weeks, increase the dose of test… if you can run 500mg for 14 weeks, then you can run 700 for 10 weeks. i would run dbol throughout the entire cycle… test is a very solid compound (my favorite injectable), and dbol is a fantastic oral for strength and size.

don’t listen to what others say about water retention, it’s nonsense. sure, both dbol and test will make you store excess water (both subcutaneously and intramuscularly), but you definitely want that water to be there to help cushion your joints.

people complain about the gains from dbol being lost rapidly upon cessation… of course the gains will be lost quickly if you only run it for 4 weeks at 30mg/day. how much would you expect to gain from running 210mg of test/week for only 4 weeks?

this simple logic eludes them for some reason.

your liver will be fine, especially if you are using tudca. I wouldn’t waste time or money on milk thistle, as the important component (silymarin) is often of very low concentration/poor quality. Tudca is very potent for liver protection.

10 weeks of test E
12 weeks of dbol (so that you still have the ‘boost’ from dbol as the test E clears your system before pct).
adex .5mg ED

pct, as you outlined.

this may be a more aggressive course than most would recommend on this site… but these are steroids we are talking about. you would be shocked to read what many of the larger folk use (especially powerlifters).

use tudca
avoid painkillers, alcohol, Tylenol, NSAIDS, rec drugs, etc.

and keep your blood pressure under control (very, very important).

[/quote]

Not gonna lie that sounds pretty intimidating lol, from what ive read dbol shuts you down pretty bad, would it be a better alternative to run the dbol at 30mgED and for 10weeks and 12 weeks of test or even 8weeks dbol?

and if you know of any blood pressure supplements to help regulate blood pressure thatd be most appreciated, cant find anything good online for the life of me.


#8

Also if my alternative was a straight cut while maintaining muscle mass ( keeping protein up in 400-500s )

would a test/winny cycle be good? or should i just use only test and rely on my dieting and training pretty much for best results?


#9

When i ran dbol for 6 weeks i had the worst joint pain in my training history - i guess caused by the rapid strength gains but the water retention did not help here. I would be more conservative with the dbol than Mr Walkway and your initial plan looks ok.

I would go with 12 weeks MAX of test.
week 1-4 dbol @ 40mg
week 9-12 winstrol or preferably anavar if you can get legit stuff.

I would try and get your hands on HCG as suggested it will make recovery a lot easier


#10

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote:

[quote]AndyJones1992 wrote:

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote:
my stats: 26yrs old have used pro hormones in the past.
6’3 222.5lbs at approx 14% BF while training seriously the past 6-7 years.

My expectations: to put on some size/weight for my frame and then harden/tone up the results best I can.

Heres what my cycle looks like
Week 1-14 Test E 250mg pinned twice a week.
Week 1-4 Dbol @ 40mg-50mg ED.
figured this would also give some time off on my liver.
Week 11-14 Winstrol @ 25mg-50mg ED.
Week 1-14 Arimidex .5mg EOD/ED depending on bloat/estrogen flares.

PCT:
Weeks 16-19
Nolvadex/tamoxifen citrate 40/40/20/20
Clomid --------------------100/50/50/50

I have no access to HCG ATM but if i can get some id pin 250ui twice a week for last 8 weeks of cycle. ( am i fine without it?)

Also i will be taking a good liver support(tudca)/milk thistle
and diet will consist of 5k cals, anwhere between 400-550grams protein
carbs up to 800s and drop/cycle carbs last 4 weeks on winstrol.

the only thing i think is a problem is trying to figure out which one I want more dbol/winstrol if together would be too harsh on the insides.
Im debating on lean bulking and getting that nice hard look at the end of my cycle or just a straight cut with winstrol added in. [/quote]

Looks good and looks like you have taken the time to read through previous posts.

I personally would just stick with the 500mg of test per week. It was my first cycle. Loved it. With a clean diet im sure you will be happy. I hate dbol, sure it gives a nice strength spike to the start of a cycle but for your goals it isnt needed, just means excess water retention. I would strongly recommend anavar if you want to try an oral. As for the winny, I just dont think you will be in good enough condition to warrant using it.

HCG, you already know the answer. If you want the best outcome from all aspects of using aas, hcg should be used on cycle. Using an enanthate ester you want to start 250iu twice per week from the seconf week into cycle, right up until last injection. Then a nice 2 week break before your pct.

PCT, looks good, I would use the chlomid at 50/50/0/0 however.

Should cycle carbs all the time, very effective way to stay leaner but energetic.

If you wanted, you could look at an 8 week cycle of test prop. Only downside is more pinning than an enanthate ester. I personally love it, especially in combo with tren ace and mast prop. Very nice hard and lean gains. Not recommended for a first cycle however.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input andy! yes i did my fair bit of research before posting anything dumb lol. In my opinion I think I could handle atleast 2 different compounds, and if dbol is mostly water which I read i was also considering a test/deca cycle

ai/pct would be same but i would add .25mg-1mg prami(frightened to death from the “deca dick”) E3d, and deca 300mg a week. test 500mg a week but i obviously dont know as much as you or some of the other vets on the forum so if you still say 500mg test is best ill probably end up going with that to be safe.

and is anavar super expensive to run at a decent dose? witch from my research id say like anywhere from 25mg-75mg ED for a starter?
[/quote]

Honestly mate if you dont make some nice gains from 500mg test as your first cycle then its not the gear its the lack of good training and diet.

My first 3 cycles were 500mg test e, all gave great results. I now love the test prop and tren ace combination. My next cycle will be 100mg test prop/100mg tren ace and i am hoping for some very nice “hard” gains.

My point is, from starting out very simple, you can quickly assess wether or not you are committed to stay on aas, you can improve your diet and training to keep making great progress even naturally and you can always look forward to going onto a new cycle of maybe some new compounds. But most importantly you stay healthy.

As for decca, I dont see anything that other “safer” compounds dont offer that decca does. If you want more “bulk” go on a slow acting esters like test e/tren e/eq and increase calories.


#11

There are perfectly viable alternatives to deca that will give you the same results. Increasing test alone will do. The typical rationale for using deca as an add on compound because of “receptor saturation” and to avoid competition for receptors with test is unfounded, and a fucking foolish one.

What I’m worried about, looking at your planned cycle length and the timing of compounds chosen, is that you are intending to bulk and then cut at the end to “polish off gains”. That would also be rather foolish in application.


#12

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote:

Not gonna lie that sounds pretty intimidating lol, from what ive read dbol shuts you down pretty bad[/quote]

sounds like you’ve read some bullshit.

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote
would it be a better alternative to run the dbol at 30mgED and for 10weeks and 12 weeks of test or even 8weeks dbol? [/quote]

the idea behind using test E for 10 weeks, and dbol for 12, is you will be ‘shut down’ by exogenous testosterone for 12 weeks instead of 16, as in your initial cycle proposal.

being ‘shut down’ for shorter periods of time is generally better for the sake of recovery

[quote]jayblackwell00 wrote
and if you know of any blood pressure supplements to help regulate blood pressure thatd be most appreciated, cant find anything good online for the life of me.
[/quote]

all sorts of things… carditone, Nac, tudca, vitamin k2, fish oil… etc.

staying away from caffeine, drinking enough water, and avoiding alcohol should do you quite well.


#13

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
^extra water doesn’t “cushion your joints.”

that myth needs to go away…[/quote]

I have always heard that it does… and my joints certainly feel better when I ran those types of drugs.

do you have a link or article? [/quote]

that’s the effect of estrogen/progesterone and it’s anti-inflammatory effect on joints…


#14

Big thank you to all that took their time critiquing my cycle. haven’t had time to check the forums in a little bit, I think I am going to go with the Test/ DBOL only cycle and will bes ure to post my results afterwards. before/after