T Nation

First Cycle, Test E

Your diet still isn’t good. You’re not eating enough calories. Eat more, train harder, your lifts will go up, and you will grow. Don’t waste money and take risks on a cycle for something you can EASILY achieve on your own.
Unless your FT and TT are that bad… but you haven’t posted numbers from what I could see.

I am 5’10 and started at 135lbs. I will lose weight quickly if I eat under 3,000 calories a day.

Looks like you’ve made some great progress. Keep it going, you’re still young, plenty of time for AAS down the road. Again, this is all assuming your labs aren’t that bad.

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He definitely still has some natural gains to be made, however I’m skeptical of the idea that somehow more calories equates to more muscle gains. I assume the law of diminishing returns would apply to that argument too. I also don’t like the idea of extreme bulking and cutting cycles as I don’t like getting fat and then starving to get some abs for summer, not to mention the hormonal fluctuations that such an approach could cause. In the long run if someone understands the risks and accepts the possibility of life on exogenous Testosterone then I guess we can only wish him luck.

Interesting recommendation for a first cycle, how would you plan a pct for this?

I’m not a fan of extreme bulking or cutting either, I eat 3200-3500 of mostly clean food and have a six pack year round and hover between 10-13%. I am curious to hear your take on why you’re skeptical about more calories possibly not equating to more muscle gained.

Very intrigued by this stuff as I was a “hard gainer”, and have struggled with gaining weight my entire life. Since upping my calories, my strength, energy, and recovery have increased and I was able to slowly add ~40lbs naturally before ever trying AAS.

Poor nutrition and under eating have seemed to be two of the biggest factors in not gaining among people I know personally, so it has always seemed like a no brainer. Definitely open to always hearing other takes on it though!

i agree with that.

believe me that i have experienced with my calories since i started with the gym stuff and the most i can away with without starting to get fat is around 2300 daily (no activity), also probably related to T levels and nutrition partitioning.

i have an office job so my activity comes from lifting and cardio at the gym (and soccer as well but thats only once a week).

I agree i still have natural gains to make, but i dont want to wait 5 years to gains probably 10lbs of muscle (if lucky).

not really undereating.
i have experienced with higher calories and i ended up just gaining fat and not much muscle (even with a proven strenght training routine)

The skinniest i was ever was 130 lbs (the before pic).
Currently i am 147lbs at the same bodyfat if not leaner than that pic, so i would say i have made decent gains natty and i probably dont have that much natty gains in the tank left.

Probably lower body but my pushing strenght is already intermediate/advanced level for my weight.

Well because if you eat like 4500 cals per day then you won’t gain more muscle but just more fat and water. Your recovery time will be a lot shorter, and you will be stronger but that doesn’t mean that every calorie added yields more muscle mass.

i had my first shot last saturday morning, i was pretty squicky clean while applying it.
Gear is underground but is a reputable source here.
Everything seems cool so far.

I would still suggest you wait 2 more years before using steroids, 143 lbs is nothing still, I think you can put on a solid 20 lbs of muscle with getting back to training your lower body.

I’d say an acceptable size to start injecting for you would be 170 lbs at 10% bf if you can manage that in two years time.

re edit: So it looks like the decision has been made, well all I can wish for you is the best of luck. Keep us posted if you run into any issues.

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The specific calorie won’t yield more muscle, however if you can hit a muscle more often due to better recovery, and can lift more weight and reps due to increased strength and energy, wouldn’t that then translate to an increased amount of potential muscle gained over a period of time?

Individual needs are all different, but eating at a deficit is not conducive to muscle building. I do agree though, that at a certain point it becomes negligible or just fat gain. But eating in a surplus of some sort is crucial.

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You’re strength training and eating at a surplus, sure you added fat. I don’t get much muscle when I strength train either. I deadlifted 405 at 145lbs and was skinny with a gut. If I do 5x5 or 5/3/1 type stuff, I get strong, but I don’t like my body. Some guys get massive on those programs, I don’t. We’re all different. Find what works for you,
Before running AAS.

Point is, we are all individuals and respond differently. Something you’re doing isn’t right and you can get bigger naturally once you figure that out.

147 @ 5’9 , you’ve got plenty of natural gains left. Plenty or 170lb+ natural folks.

I was 175 , sub 8% BF and only an inch taller. Entirely natural, and I admittedly had some left in me.

yes, i agree.
i will be in a small weekly surplus of around 300 cals according to my math.
If i see im actually losing weight/strenght ill increase calories.

about the AI, im gonna run for a month and get blood work done to check where my estrogen levels are, unless before that i start to get clear signs of high estrogen.

Dude, I don’t think you have anything dialed in and you haven’t listened to anyone’s advice.

You’re small, your lifts aren’t strong, and I refuse to believe that 2500 calories is a 300 calorie surplus on a work out day for you.

You’re not going to lose weight or strength while on cycle. Glycogen and water will add weight and you’ll be stronger. But the second you get off, your gains will go away if you don’t already have your nutrition in order.

You’re jumping the gun dude. Figure your nutritional needs out first. Learn how YOUR body grows first.

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I dont mean to be disrespectful to you but i believe going from 130 to 147 lbs while getting leaner its proof that i might know how my body reacts to different caloric amounts and how it grows?

Yeah, i get some people needs 3000 cals a day to grow and can get away with it, but thats just not me, ive been there, done that, i only ended up putting way more fat than i needed.

i do think that my bad response to high calorie diets might be related to bad natty test levels hence bad nutrition partitioning, so by inducing exogenous testosterone that should be way better and i might get away with maybe 2800 cals on lifting days.

Dude, your goal is to gain 10lbs of lean muscle. 157lbs is a very attainable goal, naturally, and if you can’t get there, I’m saying, your nutrition and workouts are lacking.

Although I applaud your transformation thus far, going from 130 to 147 is not all that spectacular to use it as an argument that you solidly know what you’re doing. If you did, you’d know that as you gain more muscle, your BMR will increase, thus requiring more daily calories for maintenance and even more for gaining new muscle. So what you were able to eat to get from 130 to 147, will not necessarily be the same for 147-160, or so on.

Everyone has told you that at your size, it’s not the best idea, yet you’re not listening to that because you’ve already made up your mind.

I don’t know how to convince him otherwise, it seems that the best we can do is give him all the advice possible in case he runs into issues.

I would caution the use of an AI as you might easily crash your E2, wait until you notice sides. High E2 is to be expected with high associated Testosterone.

Sadly, we can’t prevent it. I always just try to warn folks that if your diet and training aren’t on point, no matter what you gain on cycle, is easily lost after. I’ve seen it so many times, all the risk, and then the reward is short lived. Nothing else we can do though.

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Dude how the fk are you using steroids to get to 157lbs and talking like its something you NEED?

I bulked up to 170lbs and then cut to 158lbs 5% BF as a natty, low testosterone vegan and stepped on stage.

Sounds like you either have a shit work ethic and want a shortcut or you are giving it your all, just in the wrong ways. You’ll probably puff up like a blow fish to 165lbs, and be back down to where you are after PCT.

SB

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There’s no protocol that I’m aware of. Personally I don’t come off.

If it were me shut down that long I’d probably run nolva 40mg for a couple weeks and then 20mg from there until a few things happen:

  1. My nuts come back.
  2. I feel good.
  3. Bloodwork at 8 weeks looks good.

But anytime you come off regardless of time there can be complications.

Golden era guys to my understanding of those who trained with the big names ran 6 mo straight of gear and came off with no pct.