T Nation

First Cycle Test Cyp/Tamoxifen

38 yo man 270 lbs 5 f 10 in tall.

Used to lift 6 days a week for years but very hard to gain lean mass harder to looses fat. Lost muscle and gained fat over last two years due to no exercise and horrible food.

Back lifting 6 days a week 45 minutes, time constraints.

Had total testosterone of 377 but doctor said not to trt.

Going to go through Valkyrie for 10ml 250mg/ml testosterone cypionate and tamoxifen 20mg.

Going to cycle this at 20mg tamoxifen/day with starting dose of test at 300, 300, 350, 350, 400, 400, 400 for seven week cycle. Will stay on tamoxifen whole cycle but two weeks after last test shot will increase to 40mg/day for 2 weeks and see how I feel. Also going to split each test shot in two(300mg/wk is 150mg Monday and Thursday).

Any advice?

Don’t do this. You need to get your diet and training in order before cycling. With that much bodyfat, you’re going to aromatize like a motherfucker. 7 weeks is too short for cyp. There’s no need to ramp the dosage up like that. You don’t have an AI, which you will almost certainly need given your size. There’s a decent chance that at 38 and lower-range T, you’ll need to be on TRT for life after you cycle. You need to do a shit load of reading over the next year while you get everything in order, then revisit the idea of cycling.

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Don’t start with Nolva, wait until you see gyno forming. It is not without side effects

How much body fat? He didn’t say so how would you know? What if he wants to go on to TRT although doc wont let him just yet because his TT isnt low enough.
Your making a few assumptions here.

And this-

Is what people say that aren’t quite sure what they are talking about and probably need to do some reading for themselves. Leave it to the experienced guys if you aren’t sure.

Don’t take nolva throughout as advised above. Only if you need to. Don’t ramp the dose. Start and maintain the dose. Plan it for 10 weeks then 4 weeks no test and start a proper PCT then. The comment about you needing to go on TRT After this, might be completely correct. If your T is already low, you will probably struggle to recover good levels. Personally I’d run something like HCG or an oral for the 4 weeks you are off exogenous test, but that’s me. I’m assuming you have a high body fat%. No cycle will help that without getting your diet in order and sticking to it. Good luck.

Because…

…we are capable of reading words and then comprehending them.

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Like has already been pointed out, your low-hanging fruit is nutrition and health. Do you even know what your blood pressure averages?

TDEE minus 500-1000 and LISS daily. Do that for a year.

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Yes you are right there. I shouldnt have made that the point of my post and admittedly I jumped the gun there before reading the original post in more detail.

What I’m getting at is I’m sick of seeing ‘do more research and come back to it in a year’ instead of actually helping the OP. You see it all the time from people with little knowledge. This is why I suggested leaving it to the more experienced guys. Which in fact, one of them was you. The guys here that know what they are talking about tend to give more insightful answers.

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For example, if the OP wants to go the TRT route though doc won’t allow it due to only being borderline low T (Which would likely make it rather difficult anyway to make significant changes in body composition, though granted he mentioned he hasn’t trained and has been eating like shit, which needs to change). After sorting his nutrition and training he could run a low test cycle for say 8-10 weeks, avoiding high aromitization, meet a few of his body comp goals and at the end of the cycle, work out the elimination half lives in a way that he can book his next drs app for when his T is in the toilet. Then his Dr may consider the TRT which will most probably be life changing in this scenario.

Again this is only if TRT is something the OP is keen on. A question that could have been asked in the beginning.

@deanis55 I gave several pieces of advice before telling him to research more. I said there was no need to ramp the dosage up like OP suggested. I said that 7 weeks is too short for running cypionate. I said he had no AI listed, which I think everyone should at least have on hand even if they don’t think they need it. You completely ignored all of that, for whatever reason. I’d be happy to discuss my opinions with you or anyone else.

Thanks for replies. Have done research that’s why the tamoxifen to prevent conversion to estrogen. Sounds like it has far less side effects and less likely to bottom out E. Will now go with small dose of T 250mg for 10 weeks.

Tamoxifen doesn’t prevent conversion to estrogen. It blocks it at certain receptors.

What exactly are your goals here?

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My issue is you don’t even know what the guys goals are. I agree in part with you and under a different context I would likely agree fully. Although you haven’t asked any questions which with the limited info presented I think is necessary.

Why is 7 weeks too short to run cyp? Are you talking in general or for adding size? If its the later then we don’t know if that’s his goal.
Why is there no need to ramp the dosage? If like you said he will aromatize ‘like a motherfucker’ wouldn’t it be smart to start lower and perhaps take even longer before each step up in dosage to see at what point e2 becomes too difficult to control and leave it there until end of cycle?

I agree with having an AI on hand and I agree the diet and training needs to be sorted.

Once a little more was known in regards to his goals, instead of pointing out why his plan won’t be effective, some decent advice could have been given as to where he should go from here. Imagine how disheartening it would feel to be told, ‘that won’t work because, this, do more research’.

I made a pretty crappy example to get my point across I agree with that. But what I mentioned above is what I meant.

@deanis55 Thanks for the reply, I think we are having a good dialog now.

OP said this, I interpreted this as his goal being simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain.

Based on my personal experience with TRT, as well as plotting things out on steroidplotter. 6 weeks after starting TRT (total was 250ng/dL 6 years ago), my total and free T were still not as high as they were after 12 weeks. If you plot his cycle on steroidplotter, it shows close to peak saturation in week 5, with the concentration still rising into week 7. I realize everyone is different, but I didn’t start noticing real changes in body composition, mental attitude, etc. in the first 6 weeks. Same goes for the few small cycles I have ran in those 6 years, week 6 was when things really began to take shape. If his goal is body recomp like I surmised, then I don’t think 7 weeks will do a lot towards that goal.

Because in my experience, hormone fluctuations are the cause of some of the side effects you get such as acne. In my opinion, the goal should be as steady a level of testosterone as possible, balancing for things like pinning frequency. If he’s upping the dose every 2 weeks on his first cycle, it’s going to be harder to pin down that E2 IMO. Starting low would be a good idea, we agree there.

Precisely, so it won’t help with high E2 issues like blood pressure, water retention, emotional swings, etc. Not an insult to OP, as we were all ignorant at one time, but “tamox prevents conversion to estrogen” displays a lack of knowledge on his part.

I think we can agree that fucking with your hormones is not something to be done lightly. I think maybe you and I just have a different school of thought here. To me, it seems like you feel like I could have been more helpful to OP by asking more questions and providing more in-depth answers. Is that correct? I don’t disagree that I could have taken that path.

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I definitely agree with you here. That was the point I was essentially trying to make. I apologise if I come across as a bit of an arse.

I think we just need a little more information to help OP. Again I would agree with you completely had this been under a different context or with more info. I just don’t like the ‘do more research and come back to it in a year’ without some decent ideas on what to research and where to go from here. Which in this situation could only be provided with some questions being asked first.
In short, you are right though. Research is definitely needed.

Thank you for your reply, it’s great to have an amicable discussion with like minded people on here.

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Not at all an arse. Maybe curt, but far below standard internet attitude. :stuck_out_tongue:

We do need more info. And “do more research” is a lazy reply, you’re right. The problem is I guess I felt like I put as much or more effort into my initial reply as OP did in researching his cycle.

Likewise. I think you and I probably agree on a lot more than our initial conversation showed.

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Yes I definitely understand this.

Definitely agree with you here.

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Trying to get better labs scheduled for tomorrow. Will post when available. Going for fat loss and lean mass gain.