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First Cycle: Test, Anavar, Winstrol. What Would You Change?

10 week cycle. Age 22.
Week 1-10: 300mg test cyp
Week 1-7: 40mg oxandrolone (anavar)
week 7-10: either 10mg or 20mg stanozolol (winstrol)

Obviously this is a prolonged period of orals, so support will be taken and of course no alcohol etc
I have clomid on hand for the PCT starting ~4 weeks after the last injection. I plan on taking an AI (arimidex) and tapering down during the 4 weeks between injection and clomid.

I understand the commonality of pure test 1st cycle, but I also appreciate using slightly less test and having something a lot more anabolic to keep SHBG down and ultimately make the most gains. Would you change dosage and duration of either oral?

Thanks

10 weeks of orals is definitely not on.
What are your expectations from the cycle? Cut/Bulk/Strength?

Might help others advise you better.

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Hi mate firstly 10 weeks of orals is not a good starting point. With this being your first cycle you dont know how your going to respond to these compounds. Just keep it simple and use test and see how you react to the drugs. Save the orals for a later date and try and make the most out of each cycle and add in other compounds when you need to.

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Recomp, with a focus on quality muscle gain.
Out of interest, what is the biggest issue with long oral cycles?
The cholesterol issue is controversial but of course I’d agree you wouldn’t want it out of wack that long.
Liver enzymes… highly individual, but yep I can’t predict where I will fall. Worst case maybe I can check them 5 weeks into the anavar.

Thanks again

Thanks yep. I think my issue is I have these compounds on hand and I just want to use them :smiley:
I will kick it down a notch if I decide to use them and might just keep it lighter dose oxandrolone. I will rethink it for sure thanks.

I agree, 10 weeks straight is too much. Why winny? It’s not a great choice at the best of times. Also you probably won’t need an AI at 300mg. Nolva is probably better for PCT.
Personally, if this was my cycle I’d do 375 to 500mg test for weeks 1-10 split into 2 shots. Then, if I was stuck on var, I’d use that daily for weeks 9/10/11/12/13/14 then start nolva PCT. I wouldn’t use the winny.

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How is this controversial… multiple studies as well as personal experience on this forum shows very negative impacts to cholesterol levels. Whether or not you consider that a significant risk I suppose is up to you.

I would disagree again although Var in studies is shown to be less hepatoxic than other orals.

FWIW I would start with the test and finish with the var. This gives you time to make sure you’re not experiencing any unmanageable negatives with the test and then you can add the var in for ~ 6 weeks on the tail end. You could continue the var into your ‘off period’ before PCT to minimize gains loss.

Cool thanks
And with the lipid profile obviously dislipidemia occurs, however the acute severity is controversial. Current “medical knowledge” on LDL alone is hugely skewed and based on some pretty shitty science.

Thanks for the bridging advice. Would you consider using an AI into the clomid phase, to promote the hypothalamus to send the signal to the gonads, or should I not have any AI at the time of clomid and use that as the last substance?

Yeah I can see what you mean there.

I would not use an AI into the clomid phase. On 300mg of test I wouldn’t really consider AI usage at all. If you were using test/dbol then maybe but Var doesn’t aromatize and 300mg is not really that big of a dose. Sure its probably good to have on hand but Adex works almost too well to lower E2 and it does so quickly. From personal experience Adex has caused me way more problems than test alone ever did.

Thanks for the advice. If that is you in your pic, you’re jacked!
It is funny how it is the ancillaries or something fancy like SARMs or PHs that are often more dangerous/risky than the simple anabolics.

That’s me but its a ‘pumped’ pic after a workout to be fair. Thank you for the compliment.

This is only correlation, not causation, but I dropped adex at .125 mg 2X a week, and lipid, liver, kidney, and IGF-1 blood work improved. I track my blood work, so I can see impact from changes. Maybe I was being a bit healthier or something. Who knows. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

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First, dont use an AI, at 300, you’ll mostly likely tank you’re E2 which will bring a whole other lot of problems.

Also, skip the whinny, just go straight Var/Test and you’ll make solid gains, what is the rush? less is more. you can add whinny down the line, just keep it.

As for Sarms/Phs being more dangerous /risky, you cant really say that they are more dangerous / risky. We just dont know at this point, the studies arent there when it comes to sarms. I can tell you var is mild, but Whinny is def 100x more risky than 95% of sarms / Phs. cant even compary.

IMO,your still young for a cycle, and honestly, you came here and asked for advice, and pretty much argued with anyone who gave it to you. IMO you are looking for someone just to confirm what you want to hear. again, ill say it like everyone else in this thread, dont use the whinny. but it sounds like you have your mind made up already and seem to know everything

as for PCT, nolva 21 days after your last PIN for 4 weeks, at 40/40/20/20 should get you back to normal.

Thanks.
And nope I am aware of my bias. I have adjusted the cycle since starting this forum. Winny will be sidelined. I am not in a rush and it is true I would rather milk the shit out of anything I can before needing more gear, there is just something exciting about being on gear and I realize test and var is am ample kick relative to natural levels.

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I mean, that’s somewhat disconcerting. At 22 you should be able to gain pretty much as much as you want just by lifting and eating right. That’s sort of the benefit of being 22. What are your testosterone levels currently?

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Waiting to get my bloods done etc.
I agree with you. However, through my own stubbornness and mentality to reach rather extreme goals I have decided to run a cycle and accept all implications thereof.

Fair enough. It’s your body and you’re in charge of it. Just ensure that you’re not taking unnecessary risks and pay close attention to your body throughout the process. We tell young guys not to do this for a variety of reasons, but one of them is that young guys tend to be irresponsible. If you can mitigate that risk then you’ve eliminated at least one major hurdle.

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There are certain independent risk factors. Skewed science is subjective, after a certain point an elevated LDL concentration becomes an independent risk factor (as does depressed HDL). The skewed HDL/LDL ratios stemming from var/winny use would correlate to be an independent risk factor regardless of dietary intake/lifestyle choices.

That being said, an LDL above 100mg/dl in itself isn’t risky. Initial science had one believe LDL of 100-130mg/dl was a problem, but in the absence of bad diet and/or lifestyle (smoking, drinking, using ANABOLIC STEROIDS, drug use, being sedentary etc) it typically isn’t (lipid-subtractions can dictate whether marginally elevated LDL may be problematic). Someone with a mild form of heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia may only have mildly elevated LDL, say 140-150mg/dl (but shitty subtractions) and massively elevated lp(a) etc + potentially borderline low HDL cholesterol, that’s a problem.

If you’ve got an LDL-C of 150mg/dl+, Non HDL cholesterol of 170mg/dl+, HDL of less than 40mg/dl I’d argue it’s going to be a problem 99% of the time (long term). Acutely fucked up lipid aren’t that bad, but there is a cumulative effect over numerous cycles. There is def a long term impact on the build up of atherosclerotic plaque in relation to AAS use. Drugs like statins can be used to reduce this risk, but that’s a conversation one would want to have with their doctor (as statins aren’t always the friendliest of drugs #myopathy #glucosetolerance… and they can’t be used with orals/c17aa compounds)

It’s best to have baseline labs too, if you’ve got some form of genetically induced dyslipidemia (not as uncommon as you’d think) you’ll have sub-par/shitty lipids to begin with.