T Nation

First Cycle T4/Var, First PCT, Need Advice!

In week 3 of 6 week cycle of T4 at 800 a week and var at 80mgs a day.

I’ve read some stuff about nolvaldex closing androgen receptors, which would kill my gains right?

I was thinking clomid, And maybe some HCG, but im not really sure on dosages or the whole concept behind HCG. Some research says I should have already started taking it, others say to wait until PCT

help me out please

[quote]tayaik wrote:
In week 3 of 6 week cycle of T4 at 800 a week and var at 80mgs a day.

I’ve read some stuff about nolvaldex closing androgen receptors, which would kill my gains right?

I was thinking clomid, And maybe some HCG, but im not really sure on dosages or the whole concept behind HCG. Some research says I should have already started taking it, others say to wait until PCT

help me out please[/quote]

Im not sure what you mean, but its clear you dont fully understand what your doing, but have some idea. Ill try to guess what you mean and we can go from there.

You do not use Nolvadex/Clomid on cycle, you use an AI, adex, letro, etc.

BUT <—

Since your using Var which does not aromatize, there is no need for an AI, infact that would just most likely tank your estrogen and lead to other big problems.

I could explain HCG dosing, but you dont need it for this cycle, its not supressive enough for you to use it, and its basically too late to start.

You dont use HCG in the PCT in this case as it would just be more supressive.

Use the Nolva/Clomid for your PCT.

There are several protocols for SERM PCTs. Nolva is the modern drug of choice besides torefemine or another new gen SERM.

BUT in your case, I would just go with tried and true nolva, as your cycle is relatively short and light.

Nolva can be run as such:

Week 1: 40mg/day
Week 2: 40mg/day
Week 3: 20mg/day
Week 4: 20mg/day

Or It can be front loaded to immediately reach concentration:

Day 1: 140mg

Then continue the next four weeks at 20mg/day.

I can give you a clomid PCT if you wish but I do recommend the use of Nolva over it.

HCG won’t be of huge help is this cycle. It is not recommended for PCT, but can be handy during longer cycles with stronger compounds such as tren & deca to maintain testicle size and allow testicles to be primed to produce test during PCT to streamline recovery.

As for PCT of this oral cycle, I will let others respond. I assume a regular Nolva PCT would be fine.

Thanks Guys

Another question, I have been getting some heat for the high dosage of T-400 I have been taking.

At 800mgs a week, is this too high? Is it too late to drop my dosage down to say 400 a week, or will this have negative effects?

T4 is a thyroid drug.

Are you talking about testosterone dosed at 400mg/ml?

If you are, provide the proper background information and we can discuss your cycle with better accuracy.

So far the advice you have been given is incomplete because it was not clear that you were using testosterone.

800 mgs a week of thyroid meds is suicidal. He must be talking about test (I hope).

tayaik,

Start over again. Clearly outline your cycle, goals, stats, and cycle history as Bonez suggested and we’ll be able to help. That mention of T4 got everyone confused since that is a commonly used thyroid med.

sorry for the confusion guys, i’ll start from square one

Stats: 22yrs old, 5’10, 190 lbs, 13%bf. I have been involved in competitive sports since a young age, and have been training consitently in the gym since I was 15. I began bodybuilding 2 years ago when I stopped playing competitive hockey. Diet is good, I’ve used fitday pretty consistently for the past year and a half. Stats were taken prior to the beginning of the cycle, i have not done a bf% test yet, but i weigh 200+lbs right now. while this may be a little useless to say, my diet and training has been good, so i feel my gains have been very lean.

This was my first cycle. I unfortunatley relied more on the advice of my “dealer” than doing proper research, dumb i know but thats not the point of this thread.

what i referred to as t-400 is a test blend of 150mg/ml of cypionate and propionate, and a 100mg/ml of decanoate. blending to a total concertration of 400mg/ml.

I have been taking 2 shots every 4 days of 400mgs. a total of 800mgs every 8 days. in combination with this i have been taking 80mgs of anavar everyday.

Recently people have been telling me that 800mgs a week is too high, and that i should have done a lower dose at 600 or 400.

My question is: is it too late in my cycle ( i only have 4ml of the original 10ml bottle left) to lower the dose to 400 or 600 mgs a week?

my second question would be about front loading, there seems to be a confrontation about the pros and cons of this method from what i have read. does anyone think front loading nolvaldex would be better or worse for this particular cycle?

just to clarify, if i might be confusing
t-400 consists of the following
150mg/ml test cypionate
150mg/ml test propionate
100mg/ml test decanoate

totaling 400mg/ml

sorry if this is redundant, just trying to be clear

Thanks for clarifying. You are using 800mg of a variety of test esters every 8 days = 100mg/d = 700mg/w. That is what I am using on this my second cycle. I am using a single ester test e, which I would recommend for your future cycles (not necessaryily test e - test prop or test cyp is good too).

The problem with mixed esters is that your blood levels vary much more unless you inject the blend at a frequency that favors the shortest ester. In your case that would be test prop which is best shot ED and OK shot EOD.

You are shooting every 4th day so not only is the prop level fluctuating greatly, but that is even too long for the test Cyp ideal. Test cyp should be shot at least 2x/w - EOD is good too. That frequency (E4D) is fine for the longest ester (decanoate).

Another disadvantage of the mixed esters is recovery. PCT should not be started until exogenous test serum level has fallen to below 100mg. When you use a single ester, it is simple to calculate how long it will take for serum level to fall to the required 100mg mark using the half life of the ester as a guide.

In the case of prop that is 2 days after last injection which minimizes unproductive waiting time. For test enanthate and cypionate you are looking at around 2-3 weeks depending on the weekly amound administered on cycle.

For decanoate it would be more like 4 weeks of waiting time before starting recovery. That is a long friggin time to twiddle your thumbs and wait for the testosterone to drain out of you.

Had you used test enanthate you could have injected 2x/w and would have only had to wait 2 weeks before starting PCT.

As for frontloading Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex) - I have a thread running on just that and am waiting for Bill Robert’s decree. He has endorsed it before and I have no doubt he will refute this latest argument against the practice in short order. Follow the thread and learn.

700mg/w is a fair bit for your first cycle, but you may as well follow through now. It is certainly not dangerous if done correctly. The only loss would be that you could have made just as good gains on 500mg/w and saved the bigger guns for future cycles.

I have not heard mention of any AI use on this cycle and I hope that is not the case. If it is, bitch tits could be in your very near future.

Nolva is for post cycle after the serum level drops below 100mg. In your case that will not be the 2 days required for the first compound of your blend. It will not be the 2 weeks for the second compound of your blend. It will unfortunately be the 4 weeks for the 3rd and longest compound of your blend.

Start PCT in week 11.

You can make weeks 7-10 more productive by adding an oral like dbol or a short ester injectible like test prop, or masteron. Since those leave your system very quickly, they can be administered until a few days prior to starting PCT.

I am not saying those weeks (7-10) will be totally bad. You will have the prop ester kicking around for a couple of days and then it will be gone. You will then be left with the cyp and decanoate esters in declining amounts for 2 weeks. Finally you will be left with a little decanoate ester.

Looking back at the blend and since you were only using 175mg/w of decanoate you could probably get away with starting PCT after 3 weeks. That should give adequate time to clear the test cyp and allow one half life of decanoate to lapse leaving serum level around the 90mg mark.

Again HCG is optimally used during cycle and not post cycle. In your case you will have an effective cycle lenth of 9 weeks (6 weeks on and 3 weeks remaining at inhibitory serum level due to long ester). It is arguable that that could call for HCG use, but marginal.

Others may chime in if it would be advisable to use HCG for the last weeks of your cycle and possibly during the waiting weeks especially if you decide to add an oral or short ester injectible during that time. I am not sure about that.

Hope that helps…

that does help alot, i guess next time i wont use a blend.

your comment about an AI worries me though. I was advised not to take an AI during the cycle because of the Anavar. from what i understood the var would inhibit any aromatising. if that is not correct, i will probably take a trip down to see my doc tomorrow…

can you elaborate a little more, i have nolv on hand, but never thought to get any arimidex or anything because no one recommended it.

in fact westclock suggested that i dont take any sort of AI with this cycle.

im a little bit freaked out right now, i love tits, just not attached to my chest.

It is ideal to maintain low normal E2 (estrogen) level while on cycle to minimize bloat, eliminate the possibility of a gyno flareup, and to maximize libido. Normally as the level of testosterone in your system increases, some of it aromatizes to estrogen pushing up your E2 (estrogen) level.

Some people are more prone than others for excessive aromatization. Pretty much everyone benefits from using an AI to manage this phenomenon. Adex or Letro procured from a chemical research lab (google either compound and research chemical) are the compounds of choice since they are quite cheap (about $60-$70 for several months worth).

Adex sells for $70 for 60 ml at 1mg/ml at one particular source. The real pharmaceautical arimidex tabs cost many times that amount for the same effect.

At 3 weeks in you have really only experienced the aromatization from the test prop as the cyp takes several weeks to make its effects felt. Then after about 6 weeks, the decanoate will add to the aromatization. Then it will slowly taper off after your last injection.

In other words gyno could still present in your case. The Nolva will protect you against a flareup. If one occurs, take 40 mg/d for a week and then continue at 20mg/d until it abates completely. You will notice nipple soreness if this happens. That precedes the formation of of tissue buildup beneath the nipple (bitch tits).

Prompt treatment of the nipple soreness will prevent any further progression to tissue buildup. The Nolva can handle that, but it does not maintain low normal E2 level (optimal for men) and the benefits I described above (libido, mental clarity, no bloat, etc.).

AIs (Adex and Letro)and SERMs (Nolvadex, Clomid, Torimifen) each have their own specific uses and purposes. AIs to maintain optimal E2 level and the benefits that go with that and SERMS to quell a gyno flareup and for PCT.

For your cycle Adex should have been taken at about 0.25mg/d and adjusted up or down depending on how you specifically react to Adex dosing. Some require more than others, but 0.25mg/d is a good starting point. Lower Adex if you get achy joints, mental fogginess, low libido, cranky morale (means E2 too low).

Increase Adex dose if you get bloated, feel sore nipples, low libido, emotional (means E2 too high). Maintain perfect dose if libido is great and mental clarity is good and bloating is under control (means E2 is at ideal low normal).

If you decide to start Adex now, you should frontload it on Day 1 of its use at 1mg, then 0.25mg/d and adjust as needed. If not frontloaded, it will take about 1 week for the full dose to kick in fully. Continue the Adex through the waiting weeks as there will still be significant test aromatization occurring.

Oh, yes and talking about frontloading that is a good idea when employing long esters of testosterone for relatively short cycles or even for longer cycles unless you prefer to wait up to 6 weeks before the full effect kicks in. When frontloaded, full effects materialize much faster.

I failed to point out before that for the decanoate ester a cycle length of at least 10 weeks would be neccessary to reach full effect to any degree of functionality.

A 6 week cycle is very ill advised. Also another disadvantage of the mixed esters is how that complicates frontloading as there is a particular calculation for each ester. Prop kicks in even without a frontload in about 1 week or less. Cyp takes up to 5 weeks without a front load.

Decanoate takes basically forever. Had you frontloaded Cyp for instance, it would have kicked in in about 2 weeks or so. Decanoate is basically not used to any degree since it takes so long to recover, canbe detected if tested for so long, takes so long to take effect (many disadvantages compared to shorter esters).

BTW, if Westclock said an AI was not necessary, it would certainly have stemmed from your using the term T4 and him not knowing that you were indeed using testosterone which aromatizes. Anavar alone does not require an AI. Westclock knows his stuff.

So much info, so little time…

i really appreciate your help. i guess i need to get some adex asap.

what you mentioned at the end of your post about cyp and decanoate taking soo long too reach functionality was the reason i thought to decrease my dosage and try to extend my cycle and extra 2 weeks, this would require halving the dosage though.
obv the point is to maximize gains, would this have a negative effect?

my apologies for implicating westclock in my mess, i dont ever mean to knock any of the vets

I don’t know your best course of action. I would probably just finish what you started and possibly add in an oral like dbol for the 3 weeks waiting period before PCT. If that is not possible or interesting to you, just finish your 6 weeks as you have been doing and wait the 3 weeks and do your PCT.

Chalk it up to experience. It certainly won’t be one for the record books, but it should still give you some gains. Look at the bright side. You learned a hell of a lot.

[quote]tayaik wrote:
my apologies for implicating westclock in my mess, i dont ever mean to knock any of the vets[/quote]

Well, to be fair, some vets don’t use AIs because they are really insensitive to Estrogen related sides, and it is an added expense. I wouldn’t like to take that route, but it works for a few people.

Also, and more importantly, I get the feeling Westclock was thinking you were talking about the Thyroid med T4 instead of Test 400. So he thought all you were on was the Anavar…in which case, AIs would probably not be recommended because they would drop your estrogen TOO low.

You’ve gotten Ace advice from Dynamo. Good luck with fixing things.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I don’t know your best course of action. I would probably just finish what you started and possibly add in an oral like dbol for the 3 weeks waiting period before PCT. If that is not possible or interesting to you, just finish your 6 weeks as you have been doing and wait the 3 weeks and do your PCT.

Chalk it up to experience. It certainly won’t be one for the record books, but it should still give you some gains. Look at the bright side. You learned a hell of a lot.[/quote]

again much appreciated, you’re spot on with the recommendations. I really appreciate the help, thanks alot

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I don’t know your best course of action. I would probably just finish what you started and possibly add in an oral like dbol for the 3 weeks waiting period before PCT. If that is not possible or interesting to you, just finish your 6 weeks as you have been doing and wait the 3 weeks and do your PCT.

Chalk it up to experience. It certainly won’t be one for the record books, but it should still give you some gains. Look at the bright side. You learned a hell of a lot.[/quote]

DH I didnt read your previous novels in this thread so excuse me if you mentioned this lol.

OP if you have any of the Var left stop using it. Save it until you finish your test injections and then use it while you wait to start the pct. That would save you from having to buy more AAS for this particular cycle. I don’t know how much you have left though since you are somewhat far along in the cycle already but it’s a possibility.

wouldnt that be detrimental in the sense that, the var would be completely out of my system when i start it again? for me i didnt really feel the effect of the var until about 15 days in.

how important is it to bridge the gap between when i finish injections and begin the pct with var?

[quote]tayaik wrote:
wouldnt that be detrimental in the sense that, the var would be completely out of my system when i start it again? for me i didnt really feel the effect of the var until about 15 days in.

how important is it to bridge the gap between when i finish injections and begin the pct with var?[/quote]

Well that’s the thing with anavar. It is such a mild drug that you may not have felt the effects like you would with a more potent drug e.g. dianabol, but it was most likely doing somehting positive assuming it wasn’t fake or greatly underdosed.

How important the bridge will be is an individual thing. This is not one of those “right or wrong” type of things. Plenty of people run long esters then take off 2-3 weeks before using nolvadex and recover just fine while retaining a good amount of gains. The oral bridge is just a way to remain in an anabolic state for as long as possible before starting PCT.