T Nation

First Cycle, Serious Hot Flashes


#1

I started my first cycle ever and chose the 3-week short cycle for various reasons. Using T-prop and Mast ED for 21 days, I will write a full report later but I am very happy with the results. One reason I chose this cycle was to try and avoid the use of Adex and Nolv during the ON cycle.

After 7 or 8 days it was obvious I needed anti gyno help. My nips were seriously tender and stiff. I started .25mg Adex and 5 mg Nolv ED and I guess it helped some. But, like clock work 28 hours or so after my morning injection, if I did not use Adex and Nolv the nips right away let me know.

Also every day I get serious hot flashes. Are these hot flashes normal and expected? I will start a normal PCT just as if I am coming off a long 10 week cycle. For me right now it appears as though I can not avoid the SERM/AI PCT treatments I was hoping to avoid. Any useful comments would be helpful.


#2

Sounds like you're still in a battle with estrogen right now. You should probably bump the adex a little higher... and I'd suggest using letro next time you cycle since you appear to be quite susceptible to estrogen sides. Of course you don't mention your dose... Really no reason to be overly concerned with using SERMS / AIs. Granted if you have horrible lipid levels to begin with, using an AI is going to put you in a bad place for the duration of its use, but I guess then you need to consider whether or not to cycle in the first place.


#3

I dont understand what you were trying to advoid for pct?

Many people that I know are generally warmer while on. Hot flashes I have not heard too much about though.


#4

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#5

Dose is 100 mg each ED, T-prop, Mast.

I simple am trying to put as little foreign material in my body as possible, thats why was trying to avoid SERM/AI. Plus starting out by taking zero SERM/AI gives me a better baseline to go by in future cycles.


#6

Either do it right, or don't do it at all.


#7

Brook, I have read a lot of your posts and you certainly appear to have a lot of good information. However, your attitude and presentation of this information is always cocky and assuming. First, I have been pumping iron well over 15 years and have no intention of taking short cuts or doing it "wrong". From all the information I gathered on "short "cycles" it seemed many opinions suggested that due to the short duration of only 3 weeks that SERMS/AI may not be needed.

In my first cycle ever, I put this to the test. For me as it turns out SERMS/AI are in fact needed no matter how short the cycle. I am now better prepared with information about how I react for the next planned cycle, again a 3 week shorty. Any helpful comments you have on short cycles would be greatly appreciated.


#8

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#9

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Yup yer right, yet another reason I chose a 3 week starter cycle. Figured I would make mistakes the first time around and I have indeed. Hopefully I have learned and can put it all together in future cycles.


#10

Nothing wrong with 21-28 day cycles, they are a favourite of mine.

What i find absolutely ridiculous is the fact that anyone would decide to use STEROIDS that are known to give side effects and deliberately choose not to use drugs to avoid this.

You think you were being clever by not using anything - to assess your 'tolerance' (wrong word but you understand the point) but what would have been really clever would have been to use a very low dose of AI - as even if one doesn't get any noticeable symptoms of high estrogen, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will still have high estrogen - and if you are actually older, then your prostate will thank you - especially with the highly androgenic cycle you have used.
If you had either asked me by PM (as many do) or read a little (honestly, this would be relatively easy to find - just as the natural pulsatile testosterone output graph was) you would have quickly found out that estrogen's effects can be a problem in very short runs and also why this happens - what the causative factors are for the estrogen increases and the visual or psychological effects that the rise in estrogen can cause.

It is one thing to use AAS without knowledge of ancillaries and make the mistake that way - but to do it deliberately is really poor judgement IMO.

Not sure where "do it properly or not at all" is 'assuming' you are using short cuts however. It simply says what it says - DO it properly or don't fucking do it, ie. Use the drugs to the best of your knowledge or just don't bother - you will be thankful you did.

You simply do not need to learn the lesson you learnt the 'hard way'. It is iiresponsible and lazy IMO> This information has been LONG discovered decades ago and the means by which it is contolled is common knowledge - you are not special. Sure some do not use any estrogen control at all - BUT does this mean that they dont get high estrogen? Nope, just that they choose to not treat it as it has no ACUTE effects. It will/does however have chronic effects however.
Of the two people who never use estrogen control on this site, one has stopped using and the other frequently had libido issues.. hmm..

My attitude isn't related to the length of time you have been training (which in a way makes this all the more worse), or the level of your knowledge (which again is a sore point as it is better than most) but the fact that you chose to run drugs with known side effects - some of which can be really quite serious the older you get - while totally dismissing the use of drugs that are very available to make AAS safer and more comfortable.

That's why you don't like my attitude - because i didn't like yours.

As you can see there is quite a lot going on with me other than a mere 'cockiness'.
If you were a client you would find me to be a quite different person, a team-member, but as you are just another forum user at one of the forums i choose to post in, i may be kind or cutting, it depends on what is presented to me.


#11

He often seems short tempered, but he's right. That exact phrase came to my mind as I read your first post as well.

Chemistry is chemistry, and estrogen build-up is practically immediate when you start flooding your system with aromatizable steroids even if the symptoms occur a week or 2 weeks later....or never. This doesn't change the chemistry.

You are an experienced iron lifter and your work ethic is to be admired, but you are a noob at chemistry and doing proper reading on AAS...and for that matter preparing: the adage is as true as it is over-used---failure to prepare is preparation to fail. The ideal of "putting as little foreign stuff in your body as possible" may have much merit in regard to certain substances, but when messing around with something as powerful as hormone profiles it has ZERO. All things must be kept in balance or serious consequences can crop up unexpectedly.

It is not often I come to Brook's aid, as I think that he often brings the backlash on himself (even though I like the guy) with the temper many of his posts convey, but this is one of those times. Do it right or don't do it at all. The shit you're messing with is serious and you should be prepared.

As for your problem, up the dose of Adex if your libido take a dive (you should probably up it a bit anyway to see where that puts you), and FYI a 5.0 mg dose of Nolva is about 5-10 times too LITTLE when gyno rears its head. Because it seems you haven't seen any growth or lumps you will probably be fine just increasing your Adex dose, but if I were in that situation I would personally still jump on the Nolva at 20 mg per day for a couple days as well as cheap insurance.

I assume you were thinking of putting Adex in during PCT with your Nolva. This is not a brilliant idea. If you only used Adex on your PCT, you would possibly see an estrogen rebound upon ceasing adex---because your body will be producing very little Testosterone during early PCT and Test needs to aromatize to estrogen for proper physiological functioning, choosing this PCT time as a time to start adex is foolhardy, since you will almost immediately go into a state of abnormally low estrogen when you combine 1) no test production with 2) no estrogen being produced from test. Then when your test starts increasing naturally and you go off the Adex, your body may be primed to overreact and give you bitch tits post cycle.

It doesn't have to happen like that, but it can (and has to others), so don't put yourself in that situation in the first place.


#12

I do, i do! :wink:

I agree though Aragorn - good post.


#13

Brook I respect your opinions alot! But I dont know if he is being lazy. On furious georges cycle proposals it says that ai's are not a concern during short 2-3 week cycles. I have read were Bill Roberts says 14 days are not enough time to have a problem. Gymrat had the meds on hand, so that was good! I think its more of a economic concern not using AI during the short runs.

This is all good discussion to prevent misconceptions. I am not lazy in my research and thought from what I read real short cycles do not require AI but have them on hand in case.

PART V - SHORT CYCLES (2-3 Weeks)

WHO
Shorties seem to be favoured by 2 groups of people.

  1. Slow and Steady Gainers
    These are people who are already in good shape (not looking for radical body recomposition or huge mass gain) and want to just help facilitate steady gains. They may be people who need to "fly under the radar" for one reason or another or may be quite happy with simply making small steady gains.
    By doing a series of 2-3 week cycles with 3-4 weeks off in between steady gains will keep coming, albeit slowly, but steadily. By restricting the cycle to 2-3 weeks the negative health impact is very minimal but most importantly the suppression of endogenous FSH/LH/Test is pretty minimal (unless very high doses or 19Nors are used) so recovery is very fast and gains are maintained.

  2. Blitz cycles
    This is a strategy sometimes employed by experienced users and isn't so different from Blast cycles. It is basically 2 weeks of all out high dose androgen use, often accompanied by HGH, IGF-1, Insulin, and T3.
    The strategy is to overtrain to the point that you have actually depressed your endogenous test levels and upregulated your androgen receptors, then blast your system with very high dose androgens while lifting like a maniac for a period that is too brief to cause much testicular shutdown but long enough to cause hypertrophy and more importantly hyperplasia. Basically you are shocking your system into a very brief but rapid period of growth which can be built upon after the cycle is over.

The overall design of both is very similar as are the pros and cons.

PROS
1. Minimal Shutdown
Because the duration of use is so short there is very little suppression of natural test production. The testes usually only start to shrink after about 2-3 weeks into the cycle so if you clear the androgens at that time there is no waiting period for them to return to normal size. LH and FSH levels bounce back very quickly and in many cases actually have a rebound above normal such that endogenous test levels climb above normal for a few weeks and the user continues to see gains after androgens have been discontinued.

  1. Limiting Side Effects
    With such a short cycle negative sides don't have very much time to manifest.
    BP may be elevated but for such a short period that it isn't a big concern.
    Gyno may be an issue at higher doses but can be treaded easily with Nolva until the compounds clear.
    Liver tox is really only a concern with longer cycles so even very high doses of orals have little impact.
    Male Pattern Baldness (MPB) and Benign Prostate Hypertrophy (BPH) are really not a concern unless the undividual is planning to do many 2-3 week cycles per year.
    Acne and other skin issues seem to start around 2 weeks in for most individuals as well so the short duration tends to make them less of a factor as well.

  2. Gradual Gains
    This is important for anyone who needs to keep their androgen use somewhat under wraps. Some people due to their jobs or family situation simply can't gain 20lbs without a certain risk of having questions asked. 20lbs over the course of a year is a lot different that 20lbs over the course of 6 weeks. If it is noticed it can be attributed to consistent training and diet.

  3. Consistent focus
    If the user is running a series of short cycles with little to no supression there are smaller swings in weight, mood, strength, diet, and consistency. I think this is one of the biggest strengths of a cycle plan like this. Because there is slow but consistent gains the focus of the individual stays consistent. Consistent training, eating, and living year round. There is no big weight gain but there is also no big comedown where a user may feel depressed and lose motivation for a few months and undo all their accomplishments.

CONS
1. Limited compound selection
Short esters and orals are really the only option to actually see any benifit and not continue supressing endogenous test after the 2-3 weeks is up.

  1. Limited gains
    Gains from only 2-3 weeks are small (1-3lbs) and likely mostly water if they are even moderate (5-15lbs). The fact of the matter is that 2-3 weeks is not that long a time; the user doesn't have a chance to even get in that many workouts unless they are training twice a day. It may be that the user is simply able to break through a weight plateau they couldn't have otherwise.

COMPOUNDS
Because 2-3 weeks isn't long enough to cause serious shutdown (for the mopst part) there are a number of short acting injectable and oral options.

Test Prop is a great choice for 2-3 week cycles for the same reasons as previously stated but in this scenario we are chosing it as the preferred base compound more out of reasons of its effectiveness. It is one of the few compounds that will have much of an effect over that short a period. It is not the only choice though, just a good one.
Typical prop doses are in the range of 75-300mg/d (with users simply looking for continued gains at the low end and blitz cycles at the high end). Because not everyone can tolerate the high end of the scale Prop doses are often restricted to about 200mg/d and stacked with orals or other injectables for Blitz cycles.

Because their duration is limited to only 2-3 weeks high dose orals can be used (DBol, Drol, Winny, and Var are all fine although Var would probably be much better off being run longer).

DBol only cycles would be around 50-100mg/d.

Drol only cycles would be around 100-200mg/d.

Winny would be best stacked with either DBol or Drol at a dose of about 50-100mg/d.

Var only cycles would be around 60-120mg/d but wouldn't be good for much besides a bit of a boost in breaking through plateaus.

Short acting injectables that would work best would be Nandrolone (NPP only) and Mast (prop only), and Tren Ace but only if used with HCG because it can still cause pretty severe shutdown even after only a few weeks.

Typical NPP dose would be equal to or less than that of the test dose being run with the average in the range of 50-100mg ED. It would probably be pretty worthless run on it's own but would make a fairly good addition to the test. My only worry with it would be Nandrolone's ability to become re-esterfied in the body which may hurt recovery when doing a short cycle approach.

Mast Prop would be run in the range of about 37-75mg/d. Even at the high end listed many have difficulty with too much tightness in the muscles. It can't be run in doses high enough to really do that much on its own over just a few weeks but it is a great addition to a short cycle of test to add a bit of strength and hardness.

Tren Ace is a bit of a wild card in a shorty. On the one hand it is probably the most effective drug in terms of short term results and maybe one of the few drugs that really makes sense for this protocol to be truly successful and on the other hand it is about the most suppressive which defeats the purpose of the protocol (avoiding shutdown in the first place). For this reason the use of maintenance dose HCG (250iu 2x/w) is really the only way it will work. The other problem is that most Tren users report fairly strong sides for the first 5 days or so that they are on the drug to the point that sleep and workouts are impaired...if the cycle is only two weeks long you really can't sacrifice 5 days of gains so it's use would also have to be restricted to those individuals that tolerate it well.

STACKING
Stacking is almost a necessity in the short cycle approach because you are working with the upper limits of tolerance for most drugs and stacking lets you increase the overall level of androgens. Same guidelines still remain for stacking (AR with non-AR mediated or combo or Test/19Nor/DHT) although for reasons discussed 19Nors may not be the best approach for some.

ANCILLIARY COMPOUNDS
Ancilliary compounds used are the same although their use isn't as big a concern because the duration is so short.

The use of HGH would have to be high dose to really do anything and preferably combined with IGF-1. 2 weeks is a good timeline for IGF-1 alone so it could be run during the cycle or run during the off weeks. Use of Insulin and T3 is a more hardcore approach but effective if you don't kill yourself or permenantly damage your thyroid.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
So what would a sample 2-3 week cycle look like. Again I am not saying anyone should do this just that it would be a common protocol.

Note - for the off weeks between short cycles Nolva or Clomid can be used although FSH/LH levels should rebound pretty quick and will actually jump above normal on their own.

ORAL ONLY (2on, 2off, 2on, 2off, 2on, 4off)
W 1-2 Drol 50mg 3x/D and Winny 25mg 3x/d
W 3-4 off
W 5-6 Drol 50mg 3x/D and Winny 25mg 3x/d
W 7-8 off
W 9-10 Drol 50mg 3x/D and Winny 25mg 3x/d
W 11-14 off

INJ ONLY (3on, 4off, 3on, 4off, 3on, 8off)
W 1-3 Test Prop 75mg/d and NPP 50mg/d
W 4-7 off
W 8-10 Test Prop 75mg/d and NPP 50mg/d
W 11-14 off
W 15-17 Test Prop 75mg/d and NPP 50mg/d
W 18-25 off

NO TEST (2on, 2off, 2on, 2off, 2on, 4off)
W 1-2 Tren Ace 100mg/d, Winny 25mg 3x/d, HGC 250iu 2x/w
W 3-4 off
W 5-6 Tren Ace 100mg/d, Winny 25mg 3x/d, HGC 250iu 2x/w
W 7-8 off
W 9-10 Tren Ace 100mg/d, Winny 25mg 3x/d, HGC 250iu 2x/w
W 11-14 off

BLITZ (2on, 8off)
W 1-2 Test Prop 150mg ED
W 1-2 Tren Ace 100mg ED
W 1-2 DBol 10mg 5x/d
W 1-2 HGH 2iu 4x/d
W 1-2 IGF-1 40mcg Post Workout
W 1-2 Insulin 6iu 2x/d (morning and post workout)
W 1-2 T3 25mcg 2x/d (tapered for another week after)
W 1-2 Letro 2mg ED
W 3-10 off

Again these are just examples but it should give you an idea of how it works.


#14

Yea, in fact this was one of several write ups I used to gather info on short cycles. I can tell you this, I searched websites for several weeks and researched till my eyes were crossed and the one thing I can tell you for sure - finding clear, concise information is impossible. There are as many view points on the proper way to do things as there are people. What may seem obvious and clear as day to you vets, is not so obvious to the beginner. My only source of information is weeding through forums and websites. Trying to extract information is tough so say the least. So, for a new guy like me, I gave it my best shot for my first cycle. As it turns out, it seems as adjustments are in order. All in all I am very pleased with the short cycle. Maintaining high intensity workouts, attitude etc for 3 weeks was just the right time period for me. And yes Ikimura, in all my readings one thing was clear - have all possible SERMS and AIs on hand for ready use when needed which I did. Thanks for the help guys.


#15

I will definitely sympathize with your problems finding clear, concise information from forums.

Also, and you bring up a good point about FG's cycle guidelines, this is one area where I very thoroughly disagree with him, as knowledgeable as he is. However I really don't post around these parts as much as I should in order to make that clear as I don't really have first hand experience. Shit can flare up quicker than 2 weeks pretty easily, I've seen it happen more than once.


#16

Gymrat - i wasn't aware you actually had the SERM and AI on hand when you chose not to run them - that changes my opinion in this thread somewhat.

Basically, choosing to not add ancillaries but making sure they are available if you need them is a totally different ball game than choosing not to use them full stop. IMO at least.

If you did the latter then you didn't do as (bad as) i thought you did.

IKIMURA - Sadly, as time moves on some recommendations are not as 'optimal' as they once may have been.

Due to this fact, it would be no stretch to pull the thread to pieces if it was desired or necessary. It is meant as a guideline not as gospel (IMO).

There are not hard and fast rules to drug use in actual fact, just guidelines to maximise safety, efficacy and reduce side effects (ie. you CAN dose Test E weekly, you CAN run with no AI, you CAN use HCG afterwards and still have a decent run), there are ways to do things and then there are better ways to do things.

Also without getting into it too much, people who are new to something crave 'rules' to follow so they can get their bearings. The stickies serve that function; to bring people up to a very basic level WRT guidelines for dosing protocols. A basic reference for new users where they can get an idea as to WHY dosing is done in certain ways rather than exactly HOW to dose.
I wouldn't be able to avoid contradicting some of it due to simply never having read it.

So, it isn't really something that either needs or warrants copying and pasting (partially as it is just a thread at the top of the forum!)

JJ


#17

This is how most do it - so keep at it.

I FIRST ever got information online, reading profiles and memorising the basic actions of each drug.

Then i turned to 'actual' books - then back to the internet and now both.

This started for the first time when i was 18 or 19. I am now 29 and i have been reading at one level or another the whole duration.


#18

I am also running TEST P 75 mg/d and MAST P 50 mg/d, for an intended eight week cycle. After four days I was having issues with the BA content of my stealthy gear so I discontinued the cycle for ten days. I just resumed today with the addition of 75 mg sterile/filtered cottonseed oil, along with warming up the gear before injecting.

I also notice a thermogenic effect from these PED's. In just a few hours after my first injection. I am also running 25 mg/d adex. Time will tell if this dose has to be adjusted.

Sorry; I could not add anything new. I was simply glad to see another poster running the same PED's as myself. I will look forward to reading about your progress.

Best of luck!


#19

I assume you mean POINT25 as in .25mg/d of adex, not 25 actual miligrams, lol.


#20

YES, .25 mg! SORRY...